is wedge formation any useful ?

[squirel]

Hello

Is there anyone who can use this in a useful way and have tips how to use it ? when I charge the enemy, pretty much the first 1-3 horses (tip of the triangle) make contact with the enemy, the rest of the formation are pretty much left out of the melee, the charge does look a bit pathetic....

any ideas ?

[Paladin94610]

Searched the M2TW manual. It doesn't say wedge is used for charge. It is used to break through enemy formation. I believe they will attack nearby enemies while trying to ride out of mess before charging the enemy again.

To clarify the meaning I said, imagine this.
Your cavalry charge the enemy and another enemy infantry attack from side and back. You want to get out of being surrounded. So you order your men to move to a point outside this mess. You men will move but most of them are surrounded and foolishly killed while horses running at one point (like running on an Walking Exercise Machine). I think Wedge will enhance cavalry to fight their way through enemy formation and get out of mess will fewer casualty. I once killed enemy captain with a Viking Huscarl Cavalry using wedge getting out of Spear Militia from front and Enemy general from back. treacherous captain was killed by his own treachery.

Wrong use of wedge as to charge the enemy will devastate your own cavalry unnecessarily.

[Caesar Clivus]

Actually the wedge is supposed to be used in the charge. It does say that in the manual even though the word charge isn't used . It's supposed to concentrate all the cavalry's might in one point so that they penetrate the enemy's lines more.

[makute]

I've learned to use cavalry in loose formation (outside cities, of course) this way, horses don't get stuck on each other and you can effectively hit more enemies with less troops.

As CC said, wedge is to be used on the charge, but you must give them enough space to gain momentum and smash enemy infantry.

[Lord Humungus]

I've noticed that AI uses wedge formation only when charging another cavalry (never infantry though). I've tried it myself several times:

against infantry - fail, first 3 horses dies instantly, last line don't even get a chance to kill anyone. And trying to pull your cavalry back is a nightmare, because they all get surrounded by infantry very fast.
against cavalry - IMO no difference.

[makute]

against infantry - fail, first 3 horses dies instantly, last line don't even get a chance to kill anyone.

Choose your target wisely, never charge spear/pikemen or heavy infantry from the front.

[Ichon]

Only time I have found it useful is seek and destroy mission. When there is a large battle going on and you need your cavalry at a certain spot. Putting them in wedge makes it less likely they get tangled in a different battle on the way through battle lines. Usually when 1 of my cavalry gets in trouble fighting enemy BG or something and needs support quickly it can be useful to put some cavalry in a wedge and guide it around enemy units. Try and get it out of wedge before contact with enemy though.

Historically wedge was probably used by most cavalry attacking heavy infantry as it does disrupt formation the most and is more maneuverable. Cavalry charging in a line was mostly vs other cavalry and skirmishers or chasing routers.

[Lord Humungus]

never charge spear/pikemen or heavy infantry from the front.

Actually it's not entirely true
After playing M2:TW for several years i realized that 90% of the time heavy cavalry have only one effective tactics - direct charge. When you start all this maneuver games they get tired very quickly and suffer more casualties. If you want rear charges - you should use lighter cavalry, like mounted sergeants or scouts. Paying so many florins for heavy lancers and using them as light cavalry is not rational from financial point of view.

[makute]

Actually it's not entirely true
After playing M2:TW for several years i realized that 90% of the time heavy cavalry have only one effective tactics - direct charge. When you start all this maneuver games they get tired very quickly and suffer more casualties.

If you manage to exhaust your cavalry before a charge, your using them wrong.

[RollingWave]

Choose your target wisely, never charge spear/pikemen or heavy infantry from the front.

not really, pikemen yes, but spear / polearm / heavy inf don't really do much against a cavalry charge, as long as the quality of the cavalry is comparable or higher than said unit of course . obviously using hobilar to charge late era dismounted knights would be a slaughter

[Kulgan]

Choose your target wisely, never charge spear/pikemen or heavy infantry from the front.

I'm sorry if this sounds rude but do you actually play this game ? Heavy cavalry destroys anything, frontal, backwarts, sideways, upside down, inversed, submerged.....

Offcourse the front if the least effective method, but I disagree with your ' never '


Greetings


Kulgan

[Tears of Destiny]

I'm sorry if this sounds rude but do you actually play this game ? Heavy cavalry destroys anything, frontal, backwarts, sideways, upside down, inversed, submerged.....

Offcourse the front if the least effective method, but I disagree with your ' never '


Greetings


Kulgan

I would replace Never with Almost never. Ritterbrudder have painfully slow replen rates, so I learn to spend their lives wisely. This mentality has carried over to almost every faction I play now.

[SirRobin]

I've played 4 TW games and never found wedge useful for anything at all. Actually I keep wondering why it's still in the games. When you charge you want to make as many lances impact the target as possible, and wedge formation counteracts exactly that.

In real life, I cannot imagine the wedge to be useful either, as it's impossible to maintain strict triangular formation as the charge hits, and since the horses behind the point-man will not lend their weight to the impact of the first lance (unless you somehow imagine the other horses crashing into each others' backsides which would be an awful mess to see)

[Ichon]

In real life, I cannot imagine the wedge to be useful either, as it's impossible to maintain strict triangular formation as the charge hits, and since the horses behind the point-man will not lend their weight to the impact of the first lance (unless you somehow imagine the other horses crashing into each others' backsides which would be an awful mess to see)

Of course as the charge hits a strict triangle is not maintained but a wedge is usually led by the best/most heavily armored warriors at the point. It is also more decisive morale blow when the infantry on the receiving side feels like the entire cavalry singled him out and aiming right at him vs a long line where he feels everyone is involved and support from the rear ranks. Also once a triangle compacted more into less angular shape it still is more disruptive than a line going deeper into the infantry unit whose strength is mostly derived from working together. In wedge infantry wonders- where is the cavalry, front, side behind- who knows with wedge whereas with long line as MTW2 depicts the infantry would know- ahh, all enemy in front, organize and push back there. If cavalry attack in wedge less of the infantry are able to engage vs # of cavalry is about the same line or wedge. Also wedge is more maneuverable prior to contact, once a long line of horses start charging its quite hard to stop- need lots of room and a loud horn or something whereas with wedge just follow the leader.

Wedge is like line bent back and around so lose only a bit of cavalry contact in the center of wedge compared to long line which uses all cavalry but also lets more of the infantry come into the action where when infantry fight wedge they are blocked by other infantry and have to turn sideways, etc- entire formation loses coherency.

[SirRobin]

Of course as the charge hits a strict triangle is not maintained but a wedge is usually led by the best/most heavily armored warriors at the point. It is also more decisive morale blow when the infantry on the receiving side feels like the entire cavalry singled him out and aiming right at him vs a long line where he feels everyone is involved and support from the rear ranks. Also once a triangle compacted more into less angular shape it still is more disruptive than a line going deeper into the infantry unit whose strength is mostly derived from working together. In wedge infantry wonders- where is the cavalry, front, side behind- who knows with wedge whereas with long line as MTW2 depicts the infantry would know- ahh, all enemy in front, organize and push back there.

Interesting...

[RollingWave]

in my testing I also find that wedge is utterly useless. the most useless of all abilities.

The wedge was common partly because horses are pack animals by nature so if you have a powerful and impetuous warhorse charing ahead even lesser horses could follow and crash into enemy lines, but this nature simply isn't depicted properly in the game at all and right now as other poster have pointed out. if you use wedge, only the first 3-5 cavalry will do anything, where as if you use them in a 2 -3 line square formation, almost the whole force will pound into the enemy.

[Ichon]

in my testing I also find that wedge is utterly useless. the most useless of all abilities.

It is only useful in that it helps pathfinding. Besides the battle situation I mentioned earlier it also helps in cities- horses tend to get less 'stuck' in wedge though its still poor for fighting. I tend to use it to get my BG through gate press and past 1 or 2 infantry then run down street beside wall, turn and charge rear of infantry at gate. I find cavalry in wedge take far less losses and get less tangled than just charging without that formation but its all due to pathfinding- not because the wedge itself is good formation.

[SirRobin]

The wedge was common partly because horses are pack animals by nature so if you have a powerful and impetuous warhorse charing ahead even lesser horses could follow and crash into enemy lines, but this nature simply isn't depicted properly in the game at all and right now as other poster have pointed out. if you use wedge, only the first 3-5 cavalry will do anything, where as if you use them in a 2 -3 line square formation, almost the whole force will pound into the enemy.

Interesting, the point about horse psychology. I never thought about that.

[Lord Humungus]

It is also more decisive morale blow when the infantry on the receiving side feels like the entire cavalry singled him out and aiming right at him vs a long line where he feels everyone is involved and support from the rear ranks.

Never thought of that. Is it possible to give edge formation ability to lower morale of charged unit?

[SirRobin]

It is also more decisive morale blow when the infantry on the receiving side feels like the entire cavalry singled him out and aiming right at him vs a long line where he feels everyone is involved and support from the rear ranks.

Never thought of that. Is it possible to give edge formation ability to lower morale of charged unit?

There needs to be a drawback too, or the standard formation would then become obsolete ..