Units to merge or delete

[Meneth]

I want to delete/merge at least 10 units, hopefully 20, so that people can add factions/units if they want.
Here you can write what units should be merged, and what units should be deleted, and why.

Merge

(Maybe) ME and NE siege equipment (Maybe) ME/EE/NE archers and similar (Maybe) Mercenary versions of units - Standard versions of units (Maybe) Some ships (Maybe) Latinkon - Christian Guard

Delete

Slots freed so far (20)

Battlefield Assassins X Hashishim X Hashishim mercenaries X Numidian Cavalry X Dismounted Turhagut X Hussites X Sherwood Archers -> Longbowmen Tuareg Camel Spearmens -> Bedouin Cavalry Azabs -> ME Spear Militia EE Archer Militia -> EE Peasant Archers ME Archer Militia -> ME Peasant Archers Svenner -> Scouts (note: using Svenner stats and name) Pilgrims -> Religious Fanatics Peasant Crossbowmen -> Crossbow Militia ME Peasant Crossbowmen -> ME Crossbow Militia Crossbowmen -> Mercenary Crossbowmen (note: re-named to Crossbowmen) Mercenary Turkomans -> Turkomans Gwent Raiders -> Mercenary Spearmen Mutatawwi'a -> Ghazis Serbian Knights -> Mercenary Frankish Knights

The changes will go live in MSC soon.

[Tomato_Sandwich]

Merge: Recruitable Turkemon horse archers and Mercenary Turkemon horse archers. I think in some castles for the Seljuks you can get both. A bit pointless? Get rid of the recruitable ones maybe? they do have ALOT of different types of horse archers to choose from.

[Meneth]

Merge: Recruitable Turkemon horse archers and Mercenary Turkemon horse archers. I think in some castles for the Seljuks you can get both. A bit pointless? Get rid of the recruitable ones maybe? they do have ALOT of different types of horse archers to choose from.

Yeah, those should be merged.

Delete Battlefield Assassins.

IMO you shouldn't include this in the fixes. Let the fixes just fix stuff rather than change it.

Agreed, battlefield assassins have to go.
I'll wait for more feedback before deciding whether or not to include it in the Fixes, but thanks for coming with your opinion. Currently leaning towards having it MSC-only.
Have some rep, both of you.

[Caesar Clivus]

Delete Battlefield Assassins.

IMO you shouldn't include this in the fixes. Let the fixes just fix stuff rather than change it.

[Ishan]

IMO you shouldn't include this in the fixes. Let the fixes just fix stuff rather than change it.

I agree with CC here. This unit removal thing can be placed along the fixes as a standalone addon or something, there by keeping the original SS copy intact.

[Paladin94610]

Merge: Svenner(Norway)-Scouts(Denmark)

[Meneth]

Those two have quite different stats, actually.
Svenner are quite a bit stronger than scouts.

[Caesar Clivus]

I merged them for BftB2. They should be the same unit for historical reasons.

[Navajo Joe]

Merge Pilgrims & Religious Fanatics to one unit

[Meneth]

I merged them for BftB2. They should be the same unit for historical reasons.

Okay. I'll merge them then. Which unit's stat should take precedence?

Merge Pilgrims & Religious Fanatics to one unit

Agreed. +rep to you too.

[Caesar Clivus]

Okay. I'll merge them then. Which unit's stat should take precedence?

Svenner. That's the unit that should remain

[Meneth]

Okay, that's noted. Thanks.
5 units that will be merged, 3 siege equipment (I think) that might be merged, and some units with 3 entries that might be merged. About a dozen merges total now.
2 deletions.
Looks like there'll be enough room for Sweden, if I decide to add them in. Should even be a few slots left over.

[Lord Humungus]

Merge:
Militia crossbowmen - peasant crossbowmen
Sudanese tribesmen - mercenary tribesmen
Light man-at-arms - light swordsmen
Armenian archers - Armenians of Cilicia
Billmen militia - billmen - heavy billmen militia - heavy billmen (4 unit slots just for billmen)
Scots higland pike mercs - Scots pike militia - heavy Scots pike militia - Scots pikemen - heavy pikemen - noble pikemen (a bit too much, don't you think? )
All "knights of something" units (knights of Poland, knights of Portugal, knights of Jerusalem, Serbian knights etc.). Just the same western knights.
Hunters - Balkan archers (useless mercenaries, better to make simple "mercenary archers" available all around Europe)
Acritae - acontistae
Ghulam cavalry - Turkish ghulam cavalry
Highland archers - highland noble archers (scots never had strong archery tradition, noble archers never existed)

Delete:
Numidian cavalry (desert cavalry is enough)
Prussian spearmen (just a waste of unit slot for standart European spearmen)
Akinjis (useless, repetitive HA)
Cariocco standard and Great cross (unrealistic)
Hashashim (fantasy)
Canons of the Holy Sepulcher (they did existed in history, but using them as just another war company is ridiculous. Once I played KoJ campaign and besieged Paris with full stack of CotHS. Imagine it's happening in real life ).

[RollingWave]

pavise spear militia and pavise spearmen, both really should be removed IMHO and just use the urban militias. pavise didn't appear until pretty late and then it's mostly a shield for missile units and not melee.

of course in my own submod due to the rather large scope change I managed to remove a ton of units

but in 6.3 terms I would suggest....

1. tuareg camel spearmen
2. bedouin camel archers
3. numidian cavalry (wtf?)
4. merge spearmen and spearmen sergents back to one unit again
5. Azabs, if it's going to be so ridiculasly unhistorical then just use spear militia
6. Merchant cavalry militia (unhistorical, and not much point anyway.)
7. HashimHashim mercs .

Truth be told, because you can designate different costs in the descr_merc file, we could simply remove most merc version of a unit and simply use that unit itself as the merc with a highe recruitment cost. this move alone would save a TON of spots simply consider all the ships and merc knights and what not.

[Meneth]

pavise spear militia and pavise spearmen, both really should be removed IMHO and just use the urban militias. pavise didn't appear until pretty late and then it's mostly a shield for missile units and not melee.
1. tuareg camel spearmen
2. bedouin camel archers
3. numidian cavalry (wtf?)
5. Azabs, if it's going to be so ridiculasly unhistorical then just use spear militia
6. Merchant cavalry militia (unhistorical, and not much point anyway.)
7. HashimHashim mercs .

If you could go into more detail on why those units should be deleted, and what units should replace them if deleted, that'd help me decide whether or not to delete them.

[RollingWave]

If you could go into more detail on why those units should be deleted, and what units should replace them if deleted, that'd help me decide whether or not to delete them.

taureg: mostly, guys used camel as tranporting tools, from what records we have it appears that with some very rare exceptions most of the "camelmen" are simply mounted infantries

bedouin camel archers : see above, though I guess if you must keep one this one makes a lot more sense.

numidian cavalry: numidians were gone by 1100 for like... what... 600+ years ? if you want a merc desrt cav just use a desert cav and set it with a higher price.

Azabs: Azabs were ottoman reserve armies, organized during peace time then called up to war when needed, they were actually quiet useful and effective forces in the early stages of the Ottoman conquest, before Janisaries were even around, one could argue that Azabs were more important to the founding of the empires than anything else. so for one thing... it's a late era unit, but it's in the early era now as a even crappier version of Spear militia, since your only talking about deleting units and not changing them then they should be deleted , since right now they're about as historically accurate as a elephant cannon unit in Scotland in 1100.

spearmen and sergeant spearmen: spearmen is basically sergeant spearmen renamed while sergeant spearmen is armored sergeants renamed, as a whole, armor sergeants doesn't make much sense, sergeants were follower of knights and while obviously will wear more armor than peasants having them wear what is basically the same armor as mailed knights make no sense. meanwhile spearmen turns into some weirdo slightly better spear militia unit. in my submod I basically just changed the armored version to something else while made the spearmen back to the sergeant spearmen with some reasonable stats adjustment based on RC (basically making them back to a average quality spear unit)

Merchant cav: again, riding a horse is one thing, riding it effectively in battle is something else. even if merchants can afford good armor and weapons, it is highly unlikely that they would have invested the money for a real warhorse , and even if they did inexplicably do such a investment, it would be even MORE unlikely that they knew how to ride a horse in combat. personally I think all the units accessable via merchant guilds should be removed, but obviously in the merchant cav's case that's the only place where they're built .

HashimHashim : see battle field assasin, though they were real, and mayyybe fought in a few battles (particularly the defense of their home fortress obviously) but there's no real evidence that they served on the field for any other faction, and even if they did is there really a point of using two slots for a very difficult to access unit?

[Meneth]

@RollingWave: added several of those to the delete list now. I'll have to look into those spearmen stats first before deciding whether or not to merge them.
I'd give you rep, but apparently I've given you rep too recently.

[ShadowKiller2000]

I would suggest removing Late Pikes, Late Halbreds, Late Musketeers etc.

That is several unit slots removed immediately.

Remove some repeated mercs, and horse archers in Turkey.....really we don't need that many.

I am going to go out on a limb here........why not reduce the Cuman roster a little?

Battlefield assasins and sherwood archers. Not historical at all.

Slav Levis, merege Pilgrims and Fanatics, keep the fanatics with the clubs....more historic, and just a better unit.

Can we remove the "southern peasent" from Sicily and the Romans, and just give them the normal European peasent?

Just a few off the top of my head.

[ly0_ly0]

Nah im for keeping Prussian Spears and Sepulcher cannons. Sweden sounds awesome btw

[worldsdead]

i would merge most ships, or delete some. (i feel like i've said this before) why not just galleys, holks, dragon ships etc. no merc galley, merc holk, lad'ya etc. i would think in history that mercenary ships were the norm. whole families made there life's living on the family 'ship'. not more expensive, just expendable as you invested nothing in them, you didn't build and when service was done you'd send them on there way.