Heretic traits?

[SirRobin]

I've never seen any characters turn heretic, apart from priests.

How about these ideas, not sure about the triggers for them though:


Secret heretic

This man has begun pondering unholy falsehoods and is on the road to damnation. For now, he manages to keep this a secret.

Small loss of loyalty and piety, tiny risk of developing into "open heresy".


Open heresy

Gainsaying all that is sacred, he has openly rejected the teachings of the Holy Father.

Large loss of loyalty, chivalry(?) and piety.


Dark worship

Revealed to have practiced unspeakable acts in secret, he is now known to have bartered away his soul in exchange for mortal gains.

Total loss of loyalty, chivalry and piety. Gains dread points equal to his amount of command stars. Should be a very rare trait.

.

[Huene]

sounds like fun. although I am curious why not being religious would make a person any less loyal.

[SirRobin]

sounds like fun. although I am curious why not being religious would make a person any less loyal.

My idea was that in medieval times, the king was seen as ruling through divine mandate. That means that the king was somehow approved by god to rule in his name.

If a subject of the king turned heretic, he would therefore not expect any understanding from his ruler, and he would know that his days of serving that ruler would be at end, as the king would be obliged to persecute him.

At least that is how I understand medieval history. If somebody else has a different concept of it, feel free to chip in

[Ichon]

The Carolingian dynasty of France was the first important western European kingdom with which Popes devloped theological philosophies which formerly transferred the Church's power to the 'divine' mandate theories. Though Byzantine Emperors followed Roman traditions and other eastern traditions in considering the ruler either appointed by divine right or ruling only with the mandate of the divine.

HRE being bestowed as 'Holy' was a later part of this process by which the early Christian church received protection from the rulers and in turn blessed the rulers right to rule.

That said many kingdoms were never confused about the divinity of the King or his family. Afterall, once most Europeans were Christians how could all the rulers be blessed by the same God and have constant disagreements? Most nobility first traced their lines back to Roman aristocracy and then afterawhile to various disciples or even members of Christs family.

Eventually the theory of divine rule become a large problem for the church because under the Carolingians the Papacy had not yet been the center of the Catholic church and most Kings appointed various Bishops and often consecrated members of their own family or the ruling oligarchy into the Church. The Pope wanted to remove this power back so only the Catholic bureaucracy in Rome could appoint people to high positions in the Church.

Anglican church officially separating from Catholic and also the schism between Orthodox and Catholic had its beginnings in what powers the Pope had or claimed versus local rulers. The investiture controversies that led to several Kings being excommunicated were part of this issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investiture_Controversy

The Pope and Catholic bureaucracy in Rome prevailed in most Christian lands until the Reformation began officially in 1517 though there had been growing discontent even in lands the officially obeyed Papal authority.

So as a trait for FM is makes sense in some factions but not in others. Probably easier way to create a trait that has to do with religion and creates disloyalty.

[Gunodd]

Yes! More heresy! And blasphemy! Could be triggered by being in a region of foreign faith for too long. Or something.

[gornison]

Yes! More heresy! And blasphemy!

And then suddenly, when no one expects...

THE SPANISH INQUISITION!!!!

[Gunodd]

And then suddenly, when no one expects...

THE SPANISH INQUISITION!!!!

This is most unexpected!

[SirRobin]

Yes! More heresy! And blasphemy! Could be triggered by being in a region of foreign faith for too long. Or something.

Actually I thought heresy could be triggered if the general had below average piety and:

• executed too many christian prisoners without having a priest in the army
• razed christian cities without a priest in the army
• spent too long in non-christian lands without a church nearby or a priest in the army
• ordered destruction of churches

[nhinhonhinho]

Actually I thought heresy could be triggered if the general had below average piety and:

• executed too many christian prisoners without having a priest in the army
• razed christian cities without a priest in the army
• spent too long in non-christian lands without a church nearby or a priest in the army
• ordered destruction of churches

I like to add some more in your list

_Assassinate Priest or even worse the Pope!

Then almost all of my great generals and king will become the heretic since "scourge earth", killing and pillaging is my main strategy

[Meneth]

I like to add some more in your list

_Assassinate Priest or even worse the Pope!

Then almost all of my great generals and king will become the heretic since "scourge earth", killing and pillaging is my main strategy

Can't trigger by that, either.
There's only a generic character assassinated trigger, which AFAIK, can't be specified in any way pertaining to the character assassinated.

[Gromovnik]

that "dark worship" trait would be 100% pure badassery... me like.

[Harabec]

i like it sir robin, but having a priest shouldn't be a 'get out of jail free' card to do whatever you want
maybe reduced chance for heretic traits, but not a free pass

[SirRobin]

i like it sir robin, but having a priest shouldn't be a 'get out of jail free' card to do whatever you want
maybe reduced chance for heretic traits, but not a free pass

Good point.

How about this:

The lower the piety of the general, the higher the piety of the priest needs to be to keep his faith?

With probabilities of course, so nothing is 100 pct. certain.

[SirRobin]

Also in real history, as far as I know, there were two "types" of heretics:

First type was the crazy old hag of the village who was accused of witchery. We already have them in the game, but also family members could be accused of witchcraft or heresy if they were insane (heard voices) or suffered from epilepsy etc.

Second type is the enlightened person who starts to question the official explanations for the natural order. For example those who gain insight in astronomy. A character could aquire heresy from simply getting too many traits that increase acumen, perhaps with increased risk if the governor became too educated?

[Gunodd]

Second type is the enlightened person who starts to question the official explanations for the natural order. For example those who gain insight in astronomy. A character could aquire heresy from simply getting too many traits that increase acumen, perhaps with increased risk if the governor became too educated?

If the heretic trait is really severe, that would suck. Shouldn't be punished for having a good governor.

[SirRobin]

If the heretic trait is really severe, that would suck. Shouldn't be punished for having a good governor.

Yeah I agree, game-wise it's a problem to punish the player for doing playing the game well. But I was thinking about having it as an extra challenge, just like the Papacy itself is a challenge when you start becoming more powerful and expanding into other catholic factions' lands.

That is more a cliché then a fact. The [...] church before Martin Luther considered as a heresy what oppesed a papal dogma. And most dogmas didn't bother with the concept of "science" as we now it.

So, long story short, that second type might ad some flavour, but it is a bit of a ahistoric cliché

After reading up on this a bit again, I think you are mostly right about this. Most of the scientific people persecuted lived during the Reformation or later.. the heretics killed in the middle ages were for example Cathars and Waldensians, both trying to break away from the power, wealth and dogmatic control of the church.

But education might still lead a man into heresy, as he would have access to old texts and contacts, see for example the case of the Bogomil heretics that I here shamelessly quote from Wikipedia:

Connections to the royal court

Some sources claim the originator was the brother of tsar Petar, the fourth of the sons of Simeon I - Beneamin Boyan, known in Bulgaria under the name Boyan the Magus. According to these sources (Roman clergy documents in Constantinpoles) Beneamin was heavily influenced by "strange Syrean visitors" who visited Beneamin-Boyan on several occasions during his studies at the imperial Magnaur University in Constantinople. Upon returning to Bulgaria Beneamin/Boyan used his position to receive a monastery from the state which he would use to convert a big portion of the aristocrats and clergy into Bogomil followers.


So, in short, here we see how education can lead to heresy - if the story is true.

(and yes, it is of course a case of heresy in the orthodox faith, not the catholic...)

[Ottheinrich]

Second type is the enlightened person who starts to question the official explanations for the natural order. For example those who gain insight in astronomy. A character could aquire heresy from simply getting too many traits that increase acumen, perhaps with increased risk if the governor became too educated?

That is more a cliché then a fact. The pre-reformatoric (sorry, i have no idea if this is a word in english I mean: the church before Martin Luther) considered as a heresy what oppesed a papal dogma. And most dogmas didn't bother with the concept of "science" as we now it. In fact, a lot of the "scientific-dogmas" of the medieval church are a modern myth or anticlerical propaganda. For example that whole "the earth is flat!" thing: that was never a dogma. In fact, the theory of the "roundness" of the earth was well known in Europe ever since the 6th century and never considered a heresy by the church. (In fact, Thomas Aquinas, the most important theologican of the medieval times, said that science has proven that the earth is round.)

After Luther, the catholic church struggeld for power and feared that science might question the authority of the pope and the inquisition. So, they became more "medieval" then they were during the medieval period.

So, long story short, that second type might ad some flavour, but it is a bit of a ahistoric cliché

[Meneth]

Pretty sure it's not possible to make traits trigger based on if a priest is in the army or not.
Quite possible to make traits triggers based on how religious, and what religion, a region is though.

BTW, I take it you're an atheist, Robin?
One of the few things about the internet I don't like, is that I can't just assume that everyone I meet is an atheist and usually be right, unlike in Norway

[Gunodd]

Pretty sure it's not possible to make traits trigger based on if a priest is in the army or not.
Quite possible to make traits triggers based on how religious, and what religion, a region is though.

BTW, I take it you're an atheist, Robin?
One of the few things about the internet I don't like, is that I can't just assume that everyone I meet is an atheist and usually be right, unlike in Norway

Long live secularism!

[Meneth]

Long live secularism!

Indeed.
It's slowly taking over in most of the Western world, except for the US.

But now we're getting a bit off-topic.