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Thread: Irish Roster

  1. #1
    smoesville's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Irish Roster

    Just on a note of personal modification i was wondering what people think of this theoretical roster for ireland? And yes the lack of archers was intentional, though i might change that.

    Lught Tighe (Household Guard)
    Horsemen, sword, shield
    bodyguard

    Dismounted Lught Tighe (Irish Nobles)
    Swordsmen, sword, shield
    Recruitment
    Castle, small unit size, low refresh rate

    Ridire
    Horsemen, sword (spear?), shield
    Recruitment
    Castle

    Galloglaigh
    Axemen, great axe
    Recruitment
    Castle

    Bonnachta
    Spearmen, spear, shield
    Recruitment
    City

    Ceitherne Tighe
    Axemen, axe, shield
    Recruitment
    City, Castle

    Gaeceitherne
    Javelinmen, javelin, small shield, axe
    Recruitment
    Castle

    Gairmsluaigh
    Javelinmen, javelin, club
    Recruitment
    City, Castle
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  2. #2
    The Border Reiver's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Irish Roster

    I must admit, I haven't given any thought and or reading to Irish rosters yet. Both the Bruce and I are predominantly Anglo/Scottish in our outlook. I've never really looked at historical sources for Irish unit type, with the exception of how they employed Scottish mercenaries.

    Although saying that your roster above resembles the more highland style of roster (without horse and archers) which rely heavily on foot. I need to look at Dawn of Kingdoms again, or at least talk to Lord Condormanius.

    Do you have an interest or knowledge of medieval Ireland that may help?

  3. #3
    smoesville's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Irish Roster

    Really i just the net for any articles on it. Here is a interesting source, not really academic but seems to be researched a good bit. Also here there might be some more information.

    The troop types of ireland haven't really changed from around 900ad to 1300ad. Except for the introduction of the galloglaigh.
    Were there but a tree in this godforsaken place i would have hanged myself.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Irish Roster

    I think some archers would be warranted. Even if they were used as a secondary weapon historically they were still used. The game can't handle secondary missile weapons so some archers (i.e. bow as primary weapon) could be included which would also help provide balance. One of those history verses gameplay compromises.

    Is there any evidence of longbow use in Ireland? Given the proximity and close link with Wales I would expect that they were employed to some degree by Irish fighters.
    Last edited by The Bruce; November 11, 2010 at 10:14 PM.

  5. #5
    smoesville's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Irish Roster

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bruce View Post
    Is there any evidence of longbow use in Ireland? Given the proximity and close link with Wales I would expect that they were employed to some degree by Irish fighters.
    I'll admit my research hasn't been that in-depth but no, i haven't seen any evidence of large scale longbow use in ireland. However here there is some evidence of it, a longbow found in Westmeath. However it doesn't really say whether the longbow was used but does suggest that the large scale use of the bow by Gaelic rather then just Anglo-Irish forces. It refers to 'bows' and not specifically longbows.

    In a section titled 'Bows from Waterford', pg 6, it says that the surviving examples are clearly not longbows. It also mentions on pg 8 attempts to encourage the use of longbows by Anglo-Irish which seem unsuccessful as english longbowmen retinues were employed by the governors of ireland around 1350 onwards.

    The longbow was used 1460 onwards according to the document but unless the mod runs that long i would suggest leaving them out.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bruce View Post
    One of those history verses gameplay compromises.
    I'd agree with you on that though i think the entire issue of representing how the irish fought in c.1300 is nearly impossible to show in TW as they rarely fought large pitched battles.

    A nice solution to this might be to have AoR units in the Pale and scots mercenary archers in Ulster? The AoR could be the Anglo-Irish archers that seem to be most common in the period and have some english longbow mercenaries available in this area as well.

    Also here is a link to some primary sources which might be interesting.
    Last edited by smoesville; November 13, 2010 at 08:01 AM.
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  6. #6
    IrishBlood's Avatar GIVE THEM BLIZZARDS!
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    Default Re: Irish Roster

    as far as im concerned The Last Kingdom mod has BY FAR the best unit Roster for an irish faction

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=194938

  7. #7

    Default Re: Irish Roster

    It is also set over 400 years before our mod.

  8. #8
    smoesville's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Irish Roster

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bruce View Post
    It is also set over 400 years before our mod.
    Funnily enough what little information i've found suggests that the gaelic lords would field pretty much the same armies in KotI as tLK. The main difference is the introduction of Galloglaich as heavy infantry. The Anglo-Irish would have had men-at-arms and a few other "english" units in addition to what the gaels had. In theory you could port tLK roster straight over but some changes would have to be made. The Lord usually fought on horseback and there were no viking mercenaries.

    The army was divided into three sections, 'spears' which were the horse, basically the nobles and the richer tenants who also sometimes fought on foot, the bonnacht, who were the mercenaries both foreign and domestic and the ceitherne who were the rest of the army. There was also the Gairmsluaigh or 'rising out' but by the time of KotI these were only summoned to fight when their local area was threatened.
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  9. #9
    IrishBlood's Avatar GIVE THEM BLIZZARDS!
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    Default Re: Irish Roster

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bruce View Post
    It is also set over 400 years before our mod.
    that really wouldnt have made a difference, the last kingdom mod shows the Irish kingdoms in their golden age, as the years wore on Irish armies became less well equiped and armed. But the basic units would be the same, with a lot less viking units, and a lot more scottish mercenaries. Thats the only real difference

  10. #10

    Default Re: Irish Roster

    my 2 cents

    ceithearn (light infantry)

    formed bulk of every irish army , being armed with javelins , spears , swords , dirks, short-bows ...Some had targes, padded jerkins, caps and helmets , they fght in speed and surprise, so no much armour they used.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    ceithearn tigh (household kern)
    best kern were retained by chiefs to serve as household kern "ceithearn tigh" , kind of police force of "military thugs", they can use spear, glaive or axe .

    Galloglaich
    very capable warriors , choosen from strongest men of country , nigthmare to english soldiers, they used huge two handed axe called "spar" , axe was considered most used weapon they used , the axe was 1,8 m leght.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Saighdeoiri (archers)

    Ireland didnt use bow a much , these archers come in small numbers,

    Hobilars (light cavalery)
    Irish mounted skirmisher is described as "bearheaded man with long black hairs , wearing irish jacket and leine , having irish dager and dart in his hand"

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Marcschluag (elite bodyguards)
    most prestigious of Irish soldier types , all members of nobility, some were also merceneries .

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    -they rode without stirrups , and with only stuffed cushion instead saddle.
    -Equimpment: mail shirt, jacket , quilted jerkin, targe and iron skullcap.
    Weapons: Sword with a stount chopping blade, dirk and light lance (held over the head during the charge , becouse of stirrups absence.


    this is what we use for Patria Libera

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  11. #11
    PhilipO'Hayda's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Irish Roster

    Cool! one rep for you.

    Irish Historical adviser for Albion:Total war


  12. #12

    Default Re: Irish Roster

    IVIarkI2I your list seems very sensible.

    However I would perhaps argue with your description of the Galloglaich. These warriors were not Irish (the word means foreigner) but were Scots mercenaries who appeared first in Ireland in 1259 and in much greater numbers after the wars of independence (early 1300s). In addition to the axe they are recorded to have also used bows and other weapons.

    Eventually Gallowglass clans (such as the McSweens/Sweeneys) became landowning dynasties in their own right.


    The traditional 'Rising Out' of local men at the behest of their king would certainly have constituted the majority of Irish armies in the dark ages but by the time of our mod such forces would have been largely replaced with standing armies of mercenaries (both foreign and native).


    Simms, Katherine,
    From Kings to Warlords: The Changing Political Structure of Gaelic Ireland in the Later Middle Ages, Studies in Celtic History VII (Woodbridge, 1987).

  13. #13
    PhilipO'Hayda's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Irish Roster

    Quote Originally Posted by IrishBlood View Post
    as far as im concerned The Last Kingdom mod has BY FAR the best unit Roster for an irish faction

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=194938
    No wilddogs, Princes, Kings and Heroes is.
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=154180
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=161641

    Its just not finished yet.
    Last edited by PhilipO'Hayda; November 23, 2010 at 03:48 AM.

    Irish Historical adviser for Albion:Total war


  14. #14

    Default Re: Irish Roster

    Quote Originally Posted by PhilipO'Hayda View Post
    No wilddogs Princes, Kings and Heroes is.
    I would agree, although they are set in different eras.

    We have not yet finalised (or properly got round to) an updated Irish roster for Kingdoms of the Isles (this thread has certainly prompted my interest).

  15. #15
    smoesville's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Irish Roster

    Quote Originally Posted by IVIarkI2I View Post
    my 2 cents
    Galloglaich
    very capable warriors , choosen from strongest men of country , nigthmare to english soldiers, they used huge two handed axe called "spar" , axe was considered most used weapon they used , the axe was 1,8 m leght.
    Was the axe not called the lochaber axe and a spar was the company of 100-120 galloglaigh plus 2 retainers each?
    Were there but a tree in this godforsaken place i would have hanged myself.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Irish Roster

    I believe a spar referred to one galloglass accompanied by two servants.

    The axe they used was also called a spar (or sparth) and was no doubt similar if not identical to the lochaber axe.

  17. #17
    smoesville's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Irish Roster

    As a matter of interest; did the galloglaigh that fought in ireland use the claymore? Or did they stick to their viking heritage?
    Were there but a tree in this godforsaken place i would have hanged myself.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Irish Roster

    I think the 'viking' heritage thing can get overstated. The culture of the Hebrides and western highlands in the 13th/14th centuries was an amalgam of Gaelic, Norse and by then Norman influences. These troops would have used a variety of weapons and a 2 handed sword was likely among them.

  19. #19
    PhilipO'Hayda's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Irish Roster

    Quote Originally Posted by smoesville View Post
    As a matter of interest; did the galloglaigh that fought in ireland use the claymore? Or did they stick to their viking heritage?
    Quote Originally Posted by IVIarkI2I View Post
    well it looks good but I have been researching a bit about gallowglass and galloglaichs they didnt used claymores before 15th century, so its quite soon have this unit at rooster

    Irish Historical adviser for Albion:Total war


  20. #20

    Default Re: Irish Roster

    They were not strictly speaking called claymores at the time but 2-handed (or 1 and a half handed) double edged longswords were used before the 15th century.

    It is difficult to find reliable sources on the first use of such swords in Scotland or Ireland though.
    Last edited by The Bruce; November 23, 2010 at 06:47 PM.

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