Shooting cavalry, yes or no?

I was just wondering what players thought of shooting cavalry and whether it should be in the game or not.

Its not historical as we all know , in fact i struggle to find record of cavalry using their carbines while mounted at all ( in the few instances i have found they were certainly not moving whilst they fired them and usually would dismount to use their carbines).

Another factor to consider is that carbines had less range and accuracy than normal muskets ( strangely we find chasseurs a cheval actually have better accuracy than french line!)

Finally, it is not just historical accuarcy that i argue that cavalry should not be able to fire whilst moving but for gameplay balance purposes i think a cavalry unit that can fire on the charge into a cavalry unit that cannot has a hugely unfair advantage on a cavalry unit that cannot fire on the charge and i dont think unit costs reflect this big advantage.

i only really find them a problem on flat map,but once there is map features and forests in the way they seen to get owned by my light cav.

and the accuracy is over the top for them,it wouldnt be so bad if they couldnt take out 20 cav in one shot

Hmmm, can't make up my mind.
Can't find them too overpowered, really; only allowing shooting while stationary would change their role a lot and make them completely useless against other cav (not necessarily a bad thing, just pointing it out).
Limiting their range would nerf them too much though imho.
I use them so little that I wouldn't even notice a price change; can't say I can think of a battle where they play a decisive role, really (some camels once, but that was due to their "scaring horses" trait).
Bushranger's right that their volleys are devastating to cav, but I find it's balanced out by you having to be very careful or they'll cause horrid friendly fire incidents (the 20 cav are often enough are yours in front of them).

I guess having nothing to complain about means that for me, "the game has it just right", but then again, "I don't care either way".
Going for "has it right" because for me it's not worth the risk every balance change brings.

They also get extra numbers which should give them a extra price increase.But then saying that cheap shooter cav is the only real strength of sweden so it might upset balance more than help.

hmm i can never get my shooter cav to shoot the enemy cav before they get charged well it does sometimes happen but it seems random.Imo shooter cav is only really dangerous with their shooting ability on medium unit size.

with shooter cav you gotta move them carefully, or they arent effective at all. but i think the solution is a lowering of accuracy, that is by far the most realistic option, seeing as when you are moving at several miles an hour on a horse, your accuracy should be inhibited somewhat.perhaps around the level or lower than the accuracy of militia

I just find it a bit annoying that my cavalry are negated by mass missile cav behind my enemy. It feels as if a portion of strategy is missing in the game and I have to resort to kiting to win..

missile cav should have same kinda stats (when moving) as a 10th hussars unit (gb). but i think it should be more like 80 range, 30 accuracy, 20 reload.when stationary, then if they are mounted infantry, then 80 range, 35-40 accuracy, 25-30 reload.

Almost all cavarly where armed with a firearm or several firearms in the form of carbines. Im not sure of the solution do we give every unit the ability to fire 1-3 volleys?

issue is not when they dismount, its the issue of them firing mounted right?so just reduce accuracy...completely realistic as well.as it is, chasseur a cheval can fire with the same accuracy as polish legion...while running over 10mph

Originally Posted by Y@$!N

issue is not when they dismount, its the issue of them firing mounted right?so just reduce accuracy...completely realistic as well.as it is, chasseur a cheval can fire with the same accuracy as polish legion...while running over 10mph

but they do shoot while they are quite close dont they, like kras said before sometimes they dont have time to get that shot off, also they are aiming at cavalry which are quite large targets.

Originally Posted by DunkFunk

but they do shoot while they are quite close dont they, like kras said before sometimes they dont have time to get that shot off, also they are aiming at cavalry which are quite large targets.

depends on if they are charging right?if they were stationary and a unit came into range (80m away), they would raise their guns and fire at that distance away.if they move at 10mph, thats 4.5m/s, so by the time they have raised gun and fired while charging (i think thats 3s or so), they have made up 15m, and are about 65m from the unit.and the enemy unit (usually cav if going after chasseur a cheval) will most likely be charging, so in that time they too have travelled 15m (perhaps faster, depending on if they are light/heavy cav), so the two units after 3s are about 50m away, which is quite close now.so it is understandable that in some cases, particularly when cav is used well, then the cav might not get a shot off..i assume accuracy increases as distance decreases?so accuracy is 45@80m away, probably more at closer range.but it would increase the same way as polish legion's accuracy, i dont think the game engine is that advanced...
another thing...does shooting the horse cause a fatality?or does the soldier have to be shot?

Originally Posted by Y@$!N

depends on if they are charging right?if they were stationary and a unit came into range (80m away), they would raise their guns and fire at that distance away.if they move at 10mph, thats 4.5m/s, so by the time they have raised gun and fired while charging (i think thats 3s or so), they have made up 15m, and are about 65m from the unit.and the enemy unit (usually cav if going after chasseur a cheval) will most likely be charging, so in that time they too have travelled 15m (perhaps faster, depending on if they are light/heavy cav), so the two units after 3s are about 50m away, which is quite close now.so it is understandable that in some cases, particularly when cav is used well, then the cav might not get a shot off..i assume accuracy increases as distance decreases?so accuracy is 45@80m away, probably more at closer range.but it would increase the same way as polish legion's accuracy, i dont think the game engine is that advanced...
another thing...does shooting the horse cause a fatality?or does the soldier have to be shot?

One thing to remember here is that the range given for all units is not where the bullets stop ( random general attacks spring to mind) , so we can assume that the range on all units is given that this is where they are effective not their absolute max range. i think the game is that advanced, mods for realism reguarly use a system that makes close range volleys deadly and long range less so. And yes both rider and horse can be killed individualy, thats why we get all the alive horses running around now.

Originally Posted by Y@$!N

issue is not when they dismount, its the issue of them firing mounted right?so just reduce accuracy...completely realistic as well.as it is, chasseur a cheval can fire with the same accuracy as polish legion...while running over 10mph

I agree, if we are going to have shooter cav then they should have a much more realistic range and accuracy.

I think it's quite OP at the moment.

They've got firepower, according to math, same as one generic two rank line inf unit does.

And I recommend some players to make usage of heavy rank + going into melee with gun.
Heavy rank formation allows gun cav to resist enemy charge and fight with guns rather than swords which gives more lethal damage to the enemy.
Using these micro, they can easily out slaughter lancers and hussars.

The problem with gun cav is when you use many of them at once, it kills each other out but those could be managed by micro.

There was a thread on the forum a while back about whether or not they actually fired on horse back and i believe there was evidence they did, as this is so i believe they would have done some extensive training firing from horseback so i believe they are about right atm and remember the indians used to fire there bows extremely acurratly from horseback so should be the same really.

Originally Posted by rattue

There was a thread on the forum a while back about whether or not they actually fired on horse back and i believe there was evidence they did, as this is so i believe they would have done some extensive training firing from horseback so i believe they are about right atm and remember the indians used to fire there bows extremely acurratly from horseback so should be the same really.

Yes there is some evidence that they did indeed fire on horseback but not whilst moving that is for sure!

The carbine of the Napoleonic Wars was a short barrelled, lighter version of the infantry musket. It was the standard weapon of Napoleonic Cavalry used when the cavalry acted as skirmishers, giving them a weapon they could fire on foot or while mounted. As such it was not overly useful in either role and many cavalry refused to use carbines even if issued. This was often the case of heavy cavalry who saw themselves as later day Knights and distained such weapons which they viewed as the weapon of the common infantryman. This attitude was less common among light cavalry and at Eylau the French Chasseurs a Cheval met a Russian cavalry charge with a volley of carbine fire at 6 yds. The carbines main problem was it's short barrel , nesscecary for use while mounted but drastically reducing its range and accuracy, in a period when firearms were generally inaccurate. This did lead to some countries such as Russia and Britain withdrawing the weapons form heavy cavalry units, an example being the withdrawal from service of the carbines of the British Household Cavalry in 1813. Some countries compromised by issuing a few men per unit with carbines to be used on the units flankers, an example of these 'Flankers' can be seen in Russian service were 16 men per squadron were issued with carbines.
French carbines of the period were generally the best in Europe being longer barrelled than the carbines of other European nations. This allowed them to fire a heavier more lethal shot over greater ranges giving them the edge in skirmishers as the British discovered in the Peninsular War.

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles...rbine_nap.html

shorter guns than the muskets used by infantry should not be as accurate as them, i assume the training hours were very similar for infantry and cavalry soldiers.napoleon did have to rush a lot of soldiers through the ranks too didnt he