The Problem With Exodus and the Holocaust

[Del Valle]

Why is it that God saw fit to intervene directly in the form of plagues and a parting of the seas during the Jewish Exodus from Egypt and yet did not see fit to rescue the Jews of Europe from a the Holocaust, essentially systematized murder machine?

I want serious theological responses and none of that bull "God is mysterious".

[hellheaven1987]

God probably just wants a good laugh in the end, just like Greek Gods...

[C-Rob]

could it be debated there wouldn't BE any jews at all in the world if there was no divine intervention in the beginning but there are justtoo many to kill them all in the 20th century?

or one could take a different approach and say God never intervened at all and never will and they're full of crap and have been for thousands of years.

[Del Valle]

could it be debated there wouldn't BE any jews at all in the world if there was no divine intervention in the beginning but there are justtoo many to kill them all in the 20th century?

or one could take a different approach and say God never intervened at all and never will and they're full of crap and have been for thousands of years.

Why is it that God saw fit to intervene directly in the form of plagues and a parting of the seas during the Jewish Exodus from Egypt and yet did not see fit to rescue the Jews of Europe from a the Holocaust, essentially systematized murder machine?

I want serious theological responses and none of that bull "God is mysterious".

[Hax]

Or God did intervene, making it part of his plan to give Palestine/Israel back to the Jews? That one kinda makes sense.

[Del Valle]

Or God did intervene, making it part of his plan to give Palestine/Israel back to the Jews? That one kinda makes sense.

Perhaps, yet he gave the Israelites the Promised Land as well on their escape from Egypt. Why did he subject so many to gruesome and painful deaths when he could have just wizarded them out of the concentration camps like he did in the far less horrible conditions of slavery in Ancient Egypt?

[MaximiIian]

Or God did intervene, making it part of his plan to give Palestine/Israel back to the Jews? That one kinda makes sense.

So the Hebrew God is David Xanatos?

[Visna]

Why is it that God saw fit to intervene directly in the form of plagues and a parting of the seas during the Jewish Exodus from Egypt and yet did not see fit to rescue the Jews of Europe from a the Holocaust, essentially systematized murder machine?

I want serious theological responses and none of that bull "God is mysterious".

Apart from the "obvious" answers, like God works in mysterious ways (or the even more obvious, there is no God) the only reasonable explanation I can think of is that the Holocaust was a punishment for our sins. Yahwe isn't exactly a mellow and forgiving God, at least in some regards. Behave according to the rules and He will reward you, misbehave and He will ing spank you.

[Modestus]

Apart from the "obvious" answers, like God works in mysterious ways (or the even more obvious, there is no God) the only reasonable explanation I can think of is that the Holocaust was a punishment for our sins. Yahwe isn't exactly a mellow and forgiving God, at least in some regards. Behave according to the rules and He will reward you, misbehave and He will ing spank you.

Why apart from the most obvious answer that there is no God? Why disregard the obvious and most rational explanation that it has nothing to do with a God because God does not exist?

Edit: Can we not face the fact that life can be a even for a race and it is the very arrogance of believing that you are chosen by God that condemns you to be held hostage by others who believe that their God is the true God.

[Visna]

Why apart from the most obvious answer that there is no God? Why disregard the obvious and most rational explanation that it has nothing to do with a God because God does not exist?

Because the OP specifically requested a theological answer. And theology works under the assumption that God exists.

[Modestus]

Because the OP specifically requested a theological answer. And theology works under the assumption that God exists.

[justicar5]

Because the OP specifically requested a theological answer. And theology works under the assumption that God exists.

it doesn't however as far as I know work under the assumption that he is nice

[Elfdude]

There's several explanations which may be used singularly or in conjuction.

God works in mysterious ways. This can either be left as it or can be expanded. Since god is (supposedly) omnipotent and omniscient every action he takes he already knows the answer to. It could very well be that the holocaust was necessary to prevent a future greater evil or to progress towards whatever his end goal is. Perhaps god had no hand in the holocaust and felt no reason to intervene.

If you accept Christian tradition jews are heretics explaining why they would no longer be god's chosen. For all of their flaws the nazis did push christianity.

God loves all of his creation, equally. This is an interesting thought. Essentially god can't take action because his hands are tied. To take action would be to betray the love he had given to those he created. God is incapable of betraying those he loves and he is incapable of not feeling love for his creation.

Alternatively, god doesn't exist in magical fantasy land but as some real entity that is truly all power and all knowing. Thus any intervention would be entirely moot from his perspective. He already knows what the universe is and will be. Further if we accept inflation theory then every possible universe eventuality from the building blocks things are made out of to whether or not I brushed my teeth this morning will be both apparent and real to him. This makes invention even more moot because it doesn't actually accomplish anything but rather simply results in more branches on the tree of 'what is'.

Honestly science on the scale of the infinite creates a massive picture of 0. Essentially science is leading us to the conclusion that even nothing has localized effects which to us seem universe changing but to the big picture balance out perfectly to nothing. It's like an equation, the sums of which will always equal nothing. E.g. 100-100=0 If we look at the entire equation it's obvious that it means nothing. However if we focus on a localized area of the equation and separate the other aspects via an event horizon we can't see beyond we will assume the universe = 100 despite the fact that overall there is nothing.

[Psychonaut]

Why is it that God saw fit to intervene directly in the form of plagues and a parting of the seas during the Jewish Exodus from Egypt and yet did not see fit to rescue the Jews of Europe from a the Holocaust, essentially systematized murder machine?

I want serious theological responses and none of that bull "God is mysterious".

Maybe he decided not to do anything because Jews didn't accept Jesus Christ as the Savior/Son of God?

I highly doubt that, but I don't have any other ideas.

[hellheaven1987]

Maybe he decided not to do anything because Jews didn't accept Jesus Christ as the Savior/Son of God?

I highly doubt that, but I don't have any other ideas.

I wonder when would God allows someone to start a genocide against Christian for not believing Mohammad and Islam; after all, Islam is supposely the newest doctrine of God currently give to men...

[Marcus Publius]

I wonder when would God allows someone to start a genocide against Christian for not believing Mohammad and Islam; after all, Islam is supposely the newest doctrine of God currently give to men...

I suppose explanation would be that, we are given free will and can act like trolls in /b/.But then after we die, we will be severely punished for our transgressions.But in reality you don't have to wait very long, as every action has it's reaction.So if you have killed someone for example you will be most likely be killed.Good/Evil battle comes to mind.Basically as I understand this concept.Evil is like ing quick(sms) credit companies that give you money, and then charge you with enormous pro cents and then you're broke they end you.And good is like bank saving account you put your money.Maybe you can't have as much fun as the guy you taken credit,but in the long run it's worth it as you have the money and you're living on. Then maybe you even can start something productive from savings like a small business.

[sephodwyrm]

I wonder what the children did wrong to get labeled for what their parents were and believed in. Seriously, people think that Holocaust is divine punishment? Get some help, lads.

[Marcus Publius]

I wonder what the children did wrong to get labeled for what their parents were and believed in. Seriously, people think that Holocaust is divine punishment? Get some help, lads.

I don't think anyone here thinks that holocaust is divine punishment.

[Caliph]

From an islamic point-of-view, and no offense intended to our jewish members as I firmly believe no soul carries the sins of another soul, the jews of ancient Egypt were God's people - they may as well have been the only people on Earth at the time who believed in the One God.

However, after disappointing God, which is ultimately instigated by the rejection of Jesus, the jews from that point on were not God's people anymore and have been banished from God's mercy and no longer received preferential treatment from God. That is why, from an islamic point-of-view, Mohamed was the first prophet who wasn't even a jew.

@Elphir, To think the creation of israel as a homeland for the jewish people has anything to do with God sounds more like zionist propaganda than anything else, since the creation of modern day israel isn't up for debate as it is well-documented. Israel in Palestine wasn't inspired by God, it was inspired by Theodor Herzl; the early israelies weren't favoured by God in the first battles, they were favoured by advanced weaponry and better military tactics.

Conclusion, the time of an intervening God to protect his people is long gone and we will only see the re-emergence of an intervening God at the End-Times (which happens to be more a belief than a prediction for true believers in any of the 3 abrhamaic faiths)

[♔Goodguy1066♔]

God knows what he's doing, it's for the greater and eventual good of the people. That's been our policy since the destruction of our temple, which was the first tragedy that did not have an apparent divine reason or an immediate advantage to us. Our second policy is 'we've survived the Pharaoh, we'll survive this as well' - whether this being the destruction of the Temple, the Spanish Inquisition, the Holocaust, the Yom Kippur war or Bibi Netanyahu.