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    The Dude's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Have we reached the expiration date on democracy?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    I am going to try and be as unbiased as I can be in writing this, so I would ask that you try the same thing when reading. The reason for that is because there's no way that this canbe a fruitful discussion without a healthy level of self criticism.


    Do you know that game you used to play when you were little? At children's parties, where all the kids would sit around the table and one kid would whisper a sentence into the ear of the person next to them, and whatever was said would then have to go from ear to ear until finally the last kid in line would have to tell what the last person told them.

    And then if the initial sentence was, for example, "John likes cake", the final product would resemble something along the lines of "Mary wears shoes".

    Lately I've gotten the feeling that democracy, be it parliamentary or otherwise, is pretty much doomed to live the same process. Especially looking at American politics makes this painfully clear: politicians left and right dogmatically drum up quotes from the Founding Fathers without any understanding of the context in which they were written. These quotes then get reinterpreted and adapted to mean whatever they should mean to the situation at hand. A good example here is Benjamin Franklin who so frequently gets misquoted during political debates, especially 2nd amendment discussions, that I am left wondering if he would've even said anything at all if he had known beforehand his words would be abused so.

    In Europe we are still pretending that our countries are being run based on values established during the Renaissance and the Enlightenment. Yet who knows what Liberalism is, where Social Democracy finds its roots, why Monarchy is positioned within our political system the way it is, or why other countries have abolished it entirely. Few know, because there are fewer still left to explain it.

    Contemporary politics are, to me, mostly a matter of people being entirely out of touch with the system they are so desperately trying to defend. And I admit freely that I too am guilty of that. I've proposed my fair share of solutions to problems, or stated in general what my political philosophy is, but in hindsight I see it's mostly a collection of individual takes on individual situations without any underlying foundation. And while I'm certain that I will be met with "speak for yourself" on this, I am nonetheless convinced that many, many others including some of the prominents on this forum have made similar errors.

    It is easy to proclaim that you are X or Y, politically, and then, in retrospect, to try and reconcile your ideas with the political philosophy of your choosing just so you can claim to be acting consistently. But that's exactly the process that appears to be corrupting democracy at its very core.

    If we presume that every individual Western democratic nation that exists today was founded on very specific notions of ethics and thus by extension politics and economics, then we can only conclude that it is in our very best interest to keep those notions alive as much as possible. Yet how can we? We're all people, and thus all fallible, and given enough time any sort of opinion that was originally supported by a specific group of passionate people will be watered down and reinterpreted so much that very little of its original essence remains.

    The thing with democracy is that it relies on the lowest common denominator to participate. It's a government by the people, for the people, where we're supposed to act based on what we think is best for ourselves. Yet with a society inevitably consisting of many people of varying intellect, there is no choice but to explain rather advanced concepts in simple ways so as to not confuse anyone and allow for maximum participation. Yet so much gets lost in translation that now, in some country's cases a few hundred years down the line, it takes a very specific study of a nation's history and political philosophy to still get an idea of what the founding ideals were.

    Because you're not going to get them from Fox News or MSNBC. You're not going to get them from any form of media as the media is often not only politically biased but inherently incapable of upholding the highest political standard simply because there's no financial gain to be made.

    Taking a critical look at the state of my country and many like it, I'm seeing societies devoid of a foundation. What was once reasoned debate has given way to the overwhelming need for simplicity and has thus devolved into screaming and yelling. And not only the media does this (with their ridiculous nonsensical 24/7 news cycle in some countries), but political parties themselves are equally without basis. I'm supposedly a liberal voter and while I'm still a fan of Mark Rutte (our current prime minister) I don't exactly get the feeling that Liberalism is practiced as much as it is preached by the VVD. Nor do I get any warm fuzzy feelings when I see Greens leader Femke Halsema resorting to pure politics by arguing against things that she's supposed to agree with just because they're being spoken by the opposite party.

    Maybe I'm overly critical, maybe I'm pointing out a serious problem. I don't know. I'm expecting a lot of the same old faces to disagree with me regardless of whether this is true or not simply because they feel they must. I don't really think that I wrote this from any position of political bias. I love Western Europe, Northwestern Europe in particular and I have said many times before that this is the best place in the world to live and I still think so. I'm blessed to have been born in the Netherlands and would've been just as blessed to have been born in Germany, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, England, you name it it doesn't really matter.

    But there are problems that we're facing and they're not inconsiderable. How can a system work without a foundation? We live in a time where democracy's interpreted as "he who screams the loudest will get the most support" and that can't possibly be a good system. And I don't care if the loudest screamer is right wing or left wing or whatever. If it's populist it can't be good.

    Am I advocating a return to monarchy or what have you? No, not necessarily. Maybe we should stick with what we have. Maybe we should stick with what we have and finetune the system a bit. Or maybe we should overhaul the way our countries work and try and come up with a new system, something better and rooted in a philosophy that we won't allow to be eroded by public discourse.

    It's honestly no wonder Europe's not been at war with itself since World War 2. There's very little to disagree over if you don't know what you stand for.
    Last edited by The Dude; November 06, 2010 at 08:20 AM.
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    C-Rob's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Have we reached the expiration date on democracy?

    Wow, the comparison to the game, "telephone" rings really truthfully.

    Ohwell, people have been misquoted and abused since the dawn of time. Imagine all the renaissance people misquoting Aristotle. I guarantee that after the people who heard it at the time are dead, misquoting occurs immediately and forevermore.

    I think the world is getting more and more politically stupid. Government is slow and boring though. Notice how some how everyone thought that it woudl take a guy just a year to make a whole country economically sound and thriving. It doesn't work like that, but people want it to and just can't figure out why theyr'e not wiping their asses with dollar notes yet.

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    The Dude's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Have we reached the expiration date on democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by C-Rob View Post
    Ohwell, people have been misquoted and abused since the dawn of time. Imagine all the renaissance people misquoting Aristotle. I guarantee that after the people who heard it at the time are dead, misquoting occurs immediately and forevermore.
    Mind you, I'm not blaming misquoting itself for what's happening, I'm more describing it as a symptom of the problem. People today wouldn't misquote politicians from the 18th century if their original philosophies and convictions hadn't been so horribly lost in translation somewhere along the way.

    Of course that's a natural process, but it's also the clearest flaw in a democracy over a longer timespan it would seem.
    I have approximate answers and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything, and many things I don’t know anything about. But I don’t have to know an answer. I don’t feel frightened by not knowing.
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    Baron Thunder-ten-tronckh's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Have we reached the expiration date on democracy?

    Democracy has a lot of problems, not least of all misquoting, but even that is small in comparison to the fact that it is an illusion of power. Especially representative democracy. An illusion, smoke and mirrors. And then, there is the bread and circuses, every. single. place. you look. It is depressing.

    Democracy was built on lofty, and aspirable dreams of freedom, brotherhood (loosely translated), equality, and the rights of man; but it has denegrated, by the faults of its own ideas, into a system built around the individual, crippling 'the common wealth', and giving the individual the idea that they have power to make a difference.

    Democracy is a joke, and this is me being as unbiased as I can. Subjectivity is inherent, and we can only give opinions that have derived from our experiences. If I have seen any examples of good democracy, democracy that is not flawed, I have not yet seen it.
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    Border Patrol's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Have we reached the expiration date on democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Thunder-ten-tronckh View Post
    Democracy has a lot of problems, not least of all misquoting, but even that is small in comparison to the fact that it is an illusion of power. Especially representative democracy. An illusion, smoke and mirrors. And then, there is the bread and circuses, every. single. place. you look. It is depressing.

    Democracy was built on lofty, and aspirable dreams of freedom, brotherhood (loosely translated), equality, and the rights of man; but it has denegrated, by the faults of its own ideas, into a system built around the individual, crippling 'the common wealth', and giving the individual the idea that they have power to make a difference.

    Democracy is a joke, and this is me being as unbiased as I can. Subjectivity is inherent, and we can only give opinions that have derived from our experiences. If I have seen any examples of good democracy, democracy that is not flawed, I have not yet seen it.
    That's not what unbiased means.

    And any alternative system you come up with will essentially operate under the notion that some lone figurehead will know better than everyone else what is best for them.

    Your problem is with humanity as a whole. Adopting an autocratic form of governance won't solve any problems you have with human nature.

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    intel's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Have we reached the expiration date on democracy?

    The picture of democracy you've painted is only one face of many. It is true, we don't know what to stand for anymore. But is it neccesarily wrong? See, the moral and political absolutism is long gone. There's no clear distinction between ideologies of certain political parties, because the time of antagonism and clear danger of opposite political block is largely gone. Our societies evolved, and so have our national political scenes.

    But the problem of political identity isn't only ours. The border between oppresive regime and seemingly free society is blurred- China, Russia and other authoritarian states have abandonned totalitarian rhetorics as well.
    At the same time, there's a big dissapointment with US role in the global political scene. The moral advantage of 90s West is largely gone. West no longer prospers- at least for now- and given how well Chinese authoritarian model had fared, some questions had to be made. Experiment on pan-European united political entity is endangered due to crisis. Several seemingly democratic and western countries are politically paralyzed. Ukraine is at major risk of becoming another authoritarian state. We are involved in morally unclear affairs- the Iraq War, Kosovo and Afghanistan.


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    Default Re: Have we reached the expiration date on democracy?

    Every system has its flaws and advantages, let's never forget that. We choose the system/ideology whose flaws we can tolerate more, so nothing will be flawless. However I believe there are times in history when society should look at its government and assess the strengths/flaws, and than using this assessment reform accordingly. Similar to a 'reset' button.

    We mustn't forget that such reforms are crucial as democracy cannot be based on the theories and ideals of the 18th century, but must be continously adjusted to be compatible with our ever changing society.
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    Default Re: Have we reached the expiration date on democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by intel View Post
    We are involved in morally unclear affairs- the Iraq War, Kosovo and Afghanistan.
    how is afghanistan a morally unclear affair? seems like its pretty clear to most of the participants.

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    Baron Thunder-ten-tronckh's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Have we reached the expiration date on democracy?

    And why do we tolerate democracy more? Because it is somehow qualifyably better? Oh wait, yeah, thats right, because it makes us think we have power. Hah.
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    intel's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Have we reached the expiration date on democracy?

    Because it well, is better? What could be better than democracy we have now? Fascism? Dictatorship? Socialism?


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    Default Re: Have we reached the expiration date on democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by intel View Post
    Because it well, is better? What could be better than democracy we have now? Fascism? Dictatorship? Socialism?
    According to Plato: Aristocracy.

    He hated Democracy.

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    Default Re: Have we reached the expiration date on democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boyar Son View Post
    According to Plato: Aristocracy.

    He hated Democracy.
    Before one jumps to conclusions.. you have to understand what Plato meant with Aristocracy.

    Sometimes it is hard to understand Plato's concept of the ideal state because today's society is not based on virtues, but money. The ultimate goal of the capitalist world is not to grow spiritually and produce a community of virtuous citizens, but to make people materially richer (sometimes at the expense of others!).
    So, the Platonic state can only be understood if one abandons the materialistic view of the world and embraces the philosophy which says that the physical world is transitory and the purpose of life is to perfect the soul. Without this thinking, the Platonic state becomes just another absolutist nation.
    http://www.suite101.com/content/plat...rnment-a278155


    So by Aristocracy he didn't mean Louis XVI of France figures.. but rather Lenin and the politburo "the vanguard of the people"

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    The Dude's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Have we reached the expiration date on democracy?

    Unfortunately at the end of the day Plato's entirely political philosophy is based on the assumption that people even enjoy thinking to begin with. In a country full of philosophers, his state would work. It doesn't account for the masses. In platonic/socratic virtue ethics knowledge of things good is all that is required to be good and that's just not how it works in practice. Aristotle did a better job at virtue ethics in that regard.
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    Default Re: Have we reached the expiration date on democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by intel View Post
    Because it well, is better? What could be better than democracy we have now? Fascism? Dictatorship? Socialism?
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    Default Re: Have we reached the expiration date on democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by intel View Post
    Because it well, is better? What could be better than democracy we have now? Fascism? Dictatorship? Socialism?
    Two of these terms are not government types, but political philosophies.
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    Baron Thunder-ten-tronckh's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Have we reached the expiration date on democracy?

    And I love Plato! W000

    There have been dozens of philosophers who were dissilusioned with democracy.. I forget most of their names, but I do know/recall these: Plato, Aristotle, Thoreau.

    Aristocracy, by its definition, would have to be the best... Though, people's woes with it is how to stop the aristocracy from not being the best rulers. That is really, as far as I understand it, the only negative against aristocracy.

    Oh, and that freedom issue, but I mean, if you judge your freedom by your ability to vote, then you've just been duped by the democratic process... You've just lost your freedoms by agreeing that freedoms lie with the ballot paper.
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    intel's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Have we reached the expiration date on democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Thunder-ten-tronckh View Post
    There have been dozens of philosophers who were dissilusioned with democracy.. I forget most of their names, but I do know/recall these: Plato, Aristotle, Thoreau.
    Do you even bothered to actually read these philosophers and their biographies? I doubt so.
    Aristocracy, by its definition, would have to be the best... Though, people's woes with it is how to stop the aristocracy from not being the best rulers. That is really, as far as I understand it, the only negative against aristocracy.
    That's the most one-sided view on Aristocracy I've ever seen. Congratulations.
    Oh, and that freedom issue, but I mean, if you judge your freedom by your ability to vote, then you've just been duped by the democratic process... You've just lost your freedoms by agreeing that freedoms lie with the ballot paper.
    From beginning to the very end, your opinion is nonsense.
    Last edited by intel; November 06, 2010 at 06:34 AM.


  18. #18

    Default Re: Have we reached the expiration date on democracy?

    Plato's political views of The Republic are basically fascism. Plato is kind of an idiot on this issue.

    The best hypothetical government would not be an aristocracy.

    It would be a truly benevolent monarchy.

    But since a bad democracy is better than a bad monarchy or a bad aristocracy we go with Democracy because no system would actually be as benevolent as the hypothetical idea.
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    Baron Thunder-ten-tronckh's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Have we reached the expiration date on democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by intel View Post
    Do you even bothered to actually read these philosophers and their biographies? I doubt so.

    That's the most one-sided view on Aristocracy I've ever seen. Congratulations.

    From beginning to the very end, your opinion is nonsense.
    Yes I have read thoreau, I understand from expert opinions that Aristotle was against democracy - though I haven't got around to reading his Athenian Constitution and Politics. And I am well read in both Plato and the ensuing positive and negative commentary on his ideas.

    Aristocracy, rule of the best... Not aristocracy, rule of the noble, which is what it was twisted into in the middle ages. The best people to rule, are the people best able to rule, or is this a conclusion that is not sensible to you? I can't profess to know everything at once, so what are the arguments against an aristocracy, other than the one I outlined? Truly, I suppose there is the anarchist approach, which says people should be able to rule themselves, and this is one that I am also supportive of. But this is still different to democracy, where people become a collective with an individual interest.

    What do you think freedom is? You say my opinion is nonsense without elucidating why you think this. I agree with Thoreau, when in Walden, he muses on the nature of freedom, whether the man willing to work everyday is free at all?

    "It is hard to have a southern overseer; it is worse to have a Northern one; but worst of all when you are the slave-driver of yourself...Look at the teamseter ont he highway, wending to market by day or night... [he is] but the slave and prisoner of his own opinion of himself."

    When you read Thoreau, maybe you'll understand that he didn't support democracy in the twisted form it exists today. Perhaps, even though you seem capable of only making one line rebuttals to people's responses without adding anything of actual worth to a discussion, you will be able to read his On Civil Disobedience... Its only 25 or so pages...
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    Giorgos's Avatar Deus Ex Machina
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    Default Re: Have we reached the expiration date on democracy?

    We've reached the expiration date for all political ideologies, UNLESS, people drop party flags, and start thinking for themselves.


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