Crusader States VH/VH - Help!!

[Kulgan]

Hello all, I'm playing my first real 6.3 campaign and I chose the Crusader States and VH/VH for settings.
It's turn 30+- and I'm seeing no way out of my situation. I'll sketch the condition of my empire.

Jerusalem is under siege by several muslim stacks, Jihad stacks offcourse. While I have no problems defending Jerusalem itself It causes other problems.
My North is being guarded by a single general with few troops, most are militia. The Turks are starting to Push and I can not defend Antioch for more then 10 turns. Edessa is lost and Aleppo under siege.
The South. Jerusalem under siege and a second army fighting off smaller battles south of Jerusalem. I'm besieging Al Acqba but the Fatamids are besieging kerak and Ghaza!

The Fatamid Empire has had the Cairo Crusade diminishing it's powers but their southern settlements + scripts? still produce more soldiers then I can manage. RR RC simply does not offer me enough soldiers to be recruited in my armies. I actually had a general sail to Cyprus to hire mercenaries. I guess I should sail another to Sicily or the likes?



Questions:

1) How many more Jihad Stacks can I expect? So far I've destroyed 4+ , 5 more are surrounding Jerusalem now.
2) Does the Jihad ever stop? If I can keep J long enough will they abandon their cause?
3) Should I abandon J, then retake it and hope they won't Jihad a second time? Even if they go a second time I'll hopefully be better prepared.


On a side note
* I find loosing quite good! I mean I enjoy the challenge
*Defending J against 2 stacks at the same time is great fun. A Center square full of Mariani and Spear Militia, backed up by a few Hospitallers and Generals can hold off 3 stacks if they're not too elite. Correct placement can do so much in a siege defence.
* In 6.3 I actually like Mariani, sure they mostly rout and die almoast instantly but sometimes they really shine.


Thank you for reading.



Kulgan

[ShadowKiller2000]

Wow sounds like you are toast......

Did you try allying with the Turks and Egypt from the start? I find that getting those 2 alliances, and later the Romans really helps out the CS States. It give you a few exta turns breathing space to gather up some rebel settlements. Egypt WILL attack you sooner or later, so might as well build up a bit first. You can always try rushing Egypt, and an alliance with the Turks. Both strategies rely on a Jihad not being called too early.

I would say try fighting it out if you want. But you hit on the big issue, limited recruitable troops for the CS so early. Later on they really shine with a large citadel, and all the Knightly orders at their disposal.

Right now it is not looking so good however......

[Mightypeon]

Well, in my games on VH/VH I was highly succesfull with Blitzing Egypt. Basically, Egypt has less of an army than the rebel settlements around you. Which is even historical, since Egypt in 1100 was not exactly a force.

As a more step by step guide:
-Move Bohemond initial army to Antioch. Do not march into the settlement in between. Hire a merc galley and transport your northern armies towards Alexandria.
-Meanwhile, use the armies around Jerussalem to go after Gaza, then Kairo. Ignore the Fatimids arabian possessions (actually, the Fatimids often send significant forces towards Mecca, while you are sieging Kairo!). For now. Kairo will fuel much of your war effort!
-Treasure your Cilicians of Armenia THOSE GUYS HAVE LONGBOWS!!!
-Ally with the Byzzies
-If you are at peace with the Turks after having Blitzed Egypt, call a Crusade on them! And dont join it! The Crusade will be awnsered by most of Europe, and put the Turks at war with most of it. They will be quite hesitant to create an additional front, (unless K-Shah calls a Jihad). In my case, the Sicilains took Bagdad the Crusade target, then the K-Shahs made a Jihad on Bagdad, than I called another Crusade (Yay, now K-Shah is at war with everyone too!), then the Danes took it, than the Danes defended it against the next Jihad, then they got excommed, then I called a Crusade on Danish Bagdad and took it ;D

Meanwhile, I was happily conquering rebel settlements, aquiring stacks of Templar troops (who have like no upkeep at all) and improving my economy. I did get some 10K from merchants btw.


Jihads are strongly pimped due to the really really fast move times. Dont expect a 4-5 way Jihad to stop before 20 stacks or so.
When I had a Jihad on Jerussalem in another game, I got 3 stacks from K-Shah, 3 from the moors and 8 or so from the Turks. Since you have the Fatimids to contend it will be much more nasty.

[k/t]

There were several of these threads recently. Your answers are contained therein.

The Armenians of Cilicia have composite bows.

[Kulgan]

I actually scanned through the first few pages of topics in search for a similar topic but could not find one right away.

I'm actually getting out of my situation... Jerusalem is holding on. My Half stack of cavalry just killed 3 enemy 3/4 stacks ( less then 100 cavalry left after the last one ) Only two stacks now besiege Jerusalem, both Almohav so hopefully they'll both assault next turn and I'll be clear for one turn at least.

The Turks actually asked me for a cease fire after their failed assault on Aleppo, maybe me calling a Crusade on Bagdad the previous turn has something to do with this? Here is a real brilliant AI@ work. I don't know it's coincedence but the turn the turks offensive takes a stop and there's a crusade called they cease fire on my front! Never saw the AI do something this smart before.

With the north Being safe I can again concentrate my money and general on the south. Here my heroic cavalry force is now being retrained, two gold chevron horse archers and three experienced desert cavalry is a great base for an army. Once Jersualem is freed add in several Knights for my final offensive against the Fatamids.

Again, this has been one of my most enjoyed campaigns in total war ( over 10 years now? ) ever.
Never thought I'd get so good at siege defence.


Great job and congrats SS team!


Kulgan

[worldsdead]

i also recently started a crusader game because of all the post (like k/t mentions) i allied with turks quick so i could take rebel settlements and fight eygpt cause you will eventually. was doing fine till eygpt (while getting owned) called the crusade on jeruslem. well now like you i find the rr/rc brutal because i can not recruit soldiers quick enough all my cities and castles recruitment slots are grayed out all the time.
i would love the idea of a 'war of attrition', but despite popular support that 'the ai follows rr too' so it's more fun. bullll. it would be more fun IF the ai followed rr. why full stacks non stop. especially annoying since eygypt has one castle, one below kerak, yet still is getting professional troops. yes they are getting mercs, but the merc pools just seem to keep regenrating since both eygpt and turks seem to refuel jihad armies with them non-stop. i can't do that.
i actually planned on losing so when jihad called i gave alexandria to hre for bologna. should be fun if it comes to a comeback from italy. we'll see.

ps. yes i'm whinning. but not complaining. love the mods. acutally like rr/rc. but play caimpagn on med because of many scripts. always play battles on vh (makes those jihading generals impossible to kill) all well gotta keep trying.

[bɑne]

i would love the idea of a 'war of attrition', but despite popular support that 'the ai follows rr too' so it's more fun. bullll. it would be more fun IF the ai followed rr. why full stacks non stop. especially annoying since eygypt has one castle, one below kerak, yet still is getting professional troops. yes they are getting mercs, but the merc pools just seem to keep regenrating since both eygpt and turks seem to refuel jihad armies with them non-stop. i can't do that.

Note that if you are using BGR ("all my cities and castles recruitment slots are grayed out all the time") that the AI is not bound by it.

[Point Blank]

The AI is completely bound by RR. If they have called a jihad against you though, they will have a lot more mercs available, and they will likely be spending all their money on unit production. WIth Late Professionals, once you get past the training time, you can churn them out almost continuously, at least 1 every 2 turns and more at higher tiers.

[k/t]

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=398454
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=397249
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=383793

If you want things easy, rush Egypt in the first 15 turns. If you want things hard, don't rush Egypt in the first 15 turns.

[worldsdead]

yeah i realize all the above guys but k/t if you blitz eygpt in first 15 turns the game then is no fun as i find it impossible to lose at that point. i am, and will always be a turtler at heart. that's why i knew i would probaly have a hard time of it, and chose to play. but it's like turn 34 now so still real early, and 's hitting the fan. i let eygpt attack me and then proceeded to own them, but the turks are a different story. i only could, and have recruited 3 holy canons (very nice upkeep). much like our friend here i have milked the merc pool. my prince is constanly taking excursions from antioch to province north and nicrosia for units, then sending by ship to brother attacking jihaders outside jerusalem. i like the cav from turkey but man 660 upkeep, ouch.

also must say that unit of st.laz knight you get in beginning are beautiful, even now they still have 27 men in the unit and by far are most reliable in fight! everyone else dies and they (even though diseased ) just won't die!!

[Kulgan]

None of the links posted answer MY question. I have no need for a guide how to play - I don't want to play somebody elses campaign - I asked for suggestions in my situation, not how to play like somebody else.

I respect the effort you are doing, but really the links are useless to me.

[JorisofHolland]

Keep struggling, beat the bastards of at Jerusalem and focus on Egypt. Have the Turks fight for every step they march South towards your richer setttlements. Use crusades (even thought they are an exploit, actually, but don't bother with that if you want to survive) as much as possible, use priests to cause unrest (this and fighting muslims should keep papal favour up, which in return keeps aid from Europe up in the form of crusades). Consider not taking the crusade target, but let a friendly nation from Europe rule it - their soldiers will die without reinforcements, but they will distract your enemies for a while, all to gain some valuable breathing space and to be the next to strike.

BTW: Could you upload your campaign? I'd like to give it a try, and to see how useful my advise actually is.

[Tacitursa]

It's alot easier to just adandon your settlement and take it back after rather than trying to hold onto it and then take it back. Also if the jihad ends quick you wont have loads of enemy stacks in your land.

Just save as many forces as you can and enter them all into a crusader after to retake any lost settlement(s) and get sweet revenge on your enemy.

Dont finish the crusade too fast, attack other settlements for the first 7-8 turns so that the european forces have time to arive It's ussualy a good idea to let the first AI stack attack first too, they ussualy lose and then you can take a very weakened crusade target. Crusader stacks from europe also keep enemy stacks busy so u can reinforce your own lands or take some extra settlements

[k/t]

There are only two questions anyone ever asks about the Crusader States: what to do in the beginning, and how to deal with jihads. I thought those threads dealt with the second question, but hopefully your question has been answered by these other guys.

Generals can join the jihad for 10 turns after it's called, and if you wipe them out before the 10 turns are up, that just encourages more bastards to join. The jihad will be in effect for as long as jihading generals are still alive, but nobody will be able to join after the first 10 turns. Sometimes, after slaughtering a ton of enemies, the jihad is still ongoing but nobody's showing up. This is actually the ideal situation, as no jihading armies are attacking you and no new jihad can start until the current one ends.

The easiest way to deal with a jihad is to give the city to the Moors. The jihad ends instantly, and you immediately retake the city. The Moors are far away, so they can't retaliate. Once you take the city, you get a ceasefire.

You can try assassinating jihad leaders, causing their armies to disband a turn or two later.

Or you can grind through their armies. If you don't rush Egypt in the beginning, at least to relieve them of Gaza and Damietta/Al-Aqaba/Cairo, this is what you're looking at.

[Kulgan]

I dislike rushing, or using tricks like giving the jihad city to other factions.

The info about the 10 turn join period of the Jihad is very helpfull! I'v played a bit further now and it finally stopped. After the last assault on Jerusalem it was done for! In total I think I killed 13-14 stacks. Militia holding the center square with 2 dismounted hospitaller knights and 2 generals to charge when their troops are tired is all it takes

@ Joris : I am afraid no, I don't keep all my savegames and they all are overwritten beyond the crucual point.

@ Wiva : Giving up Jerusalem would set me back big time!
- It' already underpopulated, getting taken over two times sets it back even more
- Loosing the church = 6 turns of building wasted
- Loosing the Knights Hospitaller HQ= 6000 florins and probably 10-15 turns before getting it back.
- Loosing recriting queus, less Edessan guard, Hospitallers, constable...

@ k/t : now you are spot on!!! thanks for the reply.


This has been a great campaign, with only one major army in the field I really had the feeling the Crusader states had in their time: they could not simply go and attack the enemy, their army would be depleted manpowerwise and they would be destroyed ( what happened in real life )
But the muslim could also not force the assault, defensive behind castle walls they can not force victory. And the small christian army still is vastly superior in quality, making it a very tight balance!
I never had to overthink my possible actions this much, every action would have a ( possible ) outcome which would be defining for the rest of the fatamid campaign.

[Tacitursa]

@ Wiva : Giving up Jerusalem would set me back big time!

Not really you take it back the next turn and you maintain your entire army plus there are no stacks wondering around in your lands.

- It' already underpopulated, getting taken over two times sets it back even more

No population is lost if you occupy and as far as i know you get chivalry bonuses for occupying so population growth will get a boost. Im pretty sure a city under seige for several turns loses alot more population anyway.

Loosing the church = 6 turns of building wasted

Depending how long the jihad lasts you'll lose alot more turns while your city is being seiged. You said it's under seige by several stacks and there's bound to more on the way so you'll lose alot more than 6 turns.

Loosing the Knights Hospitaller HQ= 6000 florins and probably 10-15 turns before getting it back.

why 10-15 turns? Im not sure how HQ's work but wont you get it back as soon as you retake the city?

Loosing recriting queus, less Edessan guard, Hospitallers, constable...

How can you recruit while under seige by several stacks with several more on the way.

[Ichon]

why 10-15 turns? Im not sure how HQ's work but wont you get it back as soon as you retake the city?



How can you recruit while under seige by several stacks with several more on the way.

I think he should get HQ back but I'm not 100% there.

As for the recruiting- even with several Jihad armies often there is a break in the sieges every 3-4 turns where you can then recruit and retrain as the pools still advance when you are under siege, just not the actual units in training ques. So with many of CS units having 9-12 turns to replenish pool I see what he means- however if a player decides to give up targeted city quickly then its not a big problem, if however it is given up after all the religions DoW and sent armies then you are losing city with half dozen enemy armies in your territory. Even if you regain city next turn it will be nearly 15 turns before you can have it fully retrained and ready to fight the other invading armies. Sometimes if you hesitated in start its still better to fight all the Jihad/Crusade armies at once location and the rest of the kingdom can prosper while 1 city is continually sieged. If all those enemy armies scatter and siege various other cities that is more difficult to deal with.

So basically if you decide to give up target city do it early in the Jihad/Crusade- otherwise fight it out. Average Crusade/Jihad armies that will come are 10-18 depending on early or late campaign. So if you have doubt to defeat that many, maybe give up the city.

[Kulgan]

Not really you take it back the next turn and you maintain your entire army plus there are no stacks wondering around in your lands.



No population is lost if you occupy and as far as i know you get chivalry bonuses for occupying so population growth will get a boost. Im pretty sure a city under seige for several turns loses alot more population anyway.



Depending how long the jihad lasts you'll lose alot more turns while your city is being seiged. You said it's under seige by several stacks and there's bound to more on the way so you'll lose alot more than 6 turns.



why 10-15 turns? Im not sure how HQ's work but wont you get it back as soon as you retake the city?



How can you recruit while under seige by several stacks with several more on the way.

Very constructive post, you quote mine and say nay on every itopic I adressed. It seems like I have to explain more:

* Towns under siege still grow though less then when not under siege. However if the AI sacks you'll loose a lot of inhabitants!
* Jersualem has not been under siege for many turns, if you attack the besieging army and the AI order is favourable you'll get ' free ' turns where you can build buidings and troops.
* ' Giving ' Jerusalem to the enemy in order to undo the Jihad for me is the same as using a _CHEAT_WIN_ command. what's the point in that? You play a campaign because of the challenge it provides, not to cheat and win. At least that's my opinion.

The guild HQ I was confused about ~ I figured it was to undergo the same fait as a church ~ which would be logical in real but not according to the TW system.

[JorisofHolland]

Very constructive post, you quote mine and say nay on every itopic I adressed. It seems like I have to explain more:

* Towns under siege still grow though less then when not under siege. However if the AI sacks you'll loose a lot of inhabitants!

It's not certain they will sack.

* Jersualem has not been under siege for many turns, if you attack the besieging army and the AI order is favourable you'll get ' free ' turns where you can build buidings and troops.
* ' Giving ' Jerusalem to the enemy in order to undo the Jihad for me is the same as using a _CHEAT_WIN_ command. what's the point in that? You play a campaign because of the challenge it provides, not to cheat and win. At least that's my opinion.

Makes sense (I totally agree, actually), but if you were a noob the campaign would still be challanging engouh without Jihads. Since generally less good players come to ask for help here, it makes a lot of sense they 'proposed' this cheat.

The guild HQ I was confused about ~ I figured it was to undergo the same fait as a church ~ which would be logical in real but not according to the TW system.

It can be scripted that way. Not a very complex turn-time increasing script, probably. For religious buildings it is already scripted that way, so it'd be easy to copy the script and apply it for religious guilds.

[worldsdead]

another negative to giving up capital city: it cripples your economy!! in 6.3 you lose most of if not all of your treasury (haven't tested) but i'm pretty sure you get charged for a new capital (6000 gold?). lost ediburogh as scotland in first 15 turns (stack in ireland when england attacked king and two units of spear) and it took sevral turns, including sacking exeter, nottignham and york, to get back in the black.