HRE getting attacked by the Teutonic Order?

[SirRobin]

In my ongoing HRE campaign, I was just starting to turn the tides on France at long last (at least I live in that hope), but then suddenly I got attacked by the Teutonic Order of all things!

Now I understand that the game is to some extent random, but isn't it a bit weird that those knights who were to fight pagan Lithuania suddenly decided they would march against the Holy Roman Empire (I also have good standing with the pope, so lac of faith is not the reason..)

[bɑne]

The AI doesn't look at it that way. It just sees a target of opportunity in weak unprotected and human controlled borders.
As you neglegt to mention your difficulty, CAI and general power standing there is not much else to be said for now except that alliances are NOT written in stone.

[SirRobin]

The AI doesn't look at it that way. It just sees a target of opportunity in weak unprotected and human controlled borders.
As you neglegt to mention your difficulty, CAI and general power standing there is not much else to be said for now except that alliances are NOT written in stone.

Well, their target was Vienna, a pretty heavily defended city (no match against a horde of their elite knights of course, but it was not a weak target compared to the many settlements in Eastern Europe they could have taken instead)

And I don't think I "neglect" to give full info of all system details in this case, as I was not filing a bug report or launching an attack on anyone's beloved mod Merely sharing an odd occurrence in the game.

Perhaps some other player feels there is something to be said..

[bɑne]

And I don't think I "neglect" to give full info of all system details in this case, as I was not filing a bug report or launching an attack on anyone's beloved mod Merely sharing an odd occurrence in the game.

Well it's just that odd occurrences like that make much more sense with aggressive campaign AI and VH/VH... without that info it's always apples and oranges, see the topic about the mongols

[Ichon]

Well, their target was Vienna, a pretty heavily defended city (no match against a horde of their elite knights of course, but it was not a weak target compared to the many settlements in Eastern Europe they could have taken instead)

Sure... Vienna might have been more defended but it might also be more rich or strategically important than other more weakly defended cities. Just because it has more defenders does not mean AI made a bad choice. If you were heavily distracted against France and gaining power then maybe they made a good choice actually because when France is gone where does HRE look next?

The times when AI seems stupid to me is if Teutons had 1 city only and decided to attack HRE. Yes- ok suicidal there. But if they are attacking Vienna it sounds they have a small kingdom and it might be actually good idea for that AI.

[Spartan90]

Vienna is one of the most hotly contested cities in the Eastern (or there abouts) region. Regardless of who you are, everyone in that area has their eyes on it due to its incredible trade opportunites, central location, and proximity to Venice's ports.

As the HRE, Vienna and Bruges are the two settlements I have been constantly backstabbed over. Also, it isn't necessarily the fact that Vienna was open to attack. Sometimes, if your garrison is too large, or you have a half stack in the area, your neighbours view this as a threat.

More isn't necessarily less in this case. Sometimes, a weaker garrison on the borders of friendly neighbours is a better defense than ten stacks.

[King Siegfried]

Also - watch out for Hamburg. Especially if you're playing the Late Campaign. Being the most advanced castle in mid-northern Europe makes it hotly contested by all the Scandinavian factions, Poland, France and the HRE. The Danes will betray you if they think they can take that settlement from you.

[Tears of Destiny]

They foresaw the future, knew that around 1400 or so you were going to be a complete Jerk and side with Poland over them and demand them to become a vassal, and went and pre-empted a strike on your lands.

[Caesar Clivus]

Historically the Teutonic Order battled Poland so I dont see anything wrong with them attacking catholic factions in game.

[SirRobin]

Thanks for all replies, some good points made.

But I was not posting to showcase the AI making a bad decision, moreso I was wondering why the Teutons, having been sent specifically (partially by the HRE as I understand it?) to combat the pagans, would turn around and march all the way back to backstab me.

YES it is theoretically possible it could have happened in actual history, and yes, the AI works in mysterious ways, (and yes, I know this is a game..) but still it just feels wrong.

By the way, I'm using the middle AI - not the super agressive and not the peace loving hippie one Gracul's AI I think is the name ?

[Ichon]

Well the AI is not in some special relationship with you just because they are Teutons and you are HRE. Usually they will attack Lithuania or Poland first but the AI evaluates based on what is knows and in that sense there is nothing special for it to see about HRE. Historically most Teutonic Knights were from somewhere in Germany and were funded from Germany but in game there is no way to make a relationship like that.

It would be cool if CA ever made a better diplomatic engine which could handle some relationships like that. For instance a points system where to maintain alliance requires 3 points for example, truce requires 2 and anything less could be war though not necessarily.

+1 = shared culture, fighting same enemy, 3 or less shared border provinces, marriage into family, much larger or smaller kingdom, each peaceful turn is 1% of 1 point, each turn with trade rights is 1% of 1 point so 50 turns of both = 1 point, alliance with other ally +1, 5 skill or higher diplomat near capitol, same religion, etc

-1 = allied with enemy, more than 3 border regions, similar sizes of kingdoms, different culture, 5% of 1 per turn at war, so 20 turns is -1 whole point, less than 5 skill diplomat in lands, more than 5 units above the 'free upkeep' units in any region along shared borders, different religion, etc

So then you could have possibly +8 and -5 and still be 3 points and possible to remain allies guaranteed unless something changes. Or at least something that makes some logical sense for both AI and the player instead of seemingly random like it often is now.

[teks]

Hey I got an idea. You could fund them.

Tribute a fund constantly. That would actually work.

[The1Unwanted]

Ichon, CA did actually introduce the points system in Empire: Total War for diplomacy. But in my opinion it didn't turn out so well becouse you would have -150 points with almost everybody on turn 40 and alliances would be impossible.

As the alliance was like +15, trade rights + 5 etc but the shared borders or having more land than anyone else would cause -170 or some ridiculous number like that. Making alliances or even peacefull relations impossible.

I prefer the good old Medieval trust and relation system

[Ichon]

Ichon, CA did actually introduce the points system in Empire: Total War for diplomacy. But in my opinion it didn't turn out so well becouse you would have -150 points with almost everybody on turn 40 and alliances would be impossible.

As the alliance was like +15, trade rights + 5 etc but the shared borders or having more land than anyone else would cause -170 or some ridiculous number like that. Making alliances or even peacefull relations impossible.

I prefer the good old Medieval trust and relation system

That is because they implemented it poorly. Most of the decision trees on the points systems in games have only 2 branches- your actions and the 1 other AI faction you interact with. To really mean anything it needs to be more complicated with more positive actions and the balance for peace set in the middle. ETW had too wide a range in the points for the positive actions they gave to make any difference. Of course TW is called that for a reason but in most players minds I think some more believable diplomacy would help alot.

I have seen only a couple games that implemented points systems well but unfortunately the the diplomacy was the highlight and the rest of the game was riddled with bugs.

[SirRobin]

Of course TW is called that for a reason

I think the real reason they are called "Total War" is that the series started with Shogun: total War which depicted a time where there was total war in Japan.

Later, (clueless .. ahem..) developers inherited the name of the game and misunderstood it to mean that the games must continue to be about endless warfare.

[Ichon]

I think the real reason they are called "Total War" is that the series started with Shogun: total War which depicted a time where there was total war in Japan.

Later, (clueless .. ahem..) developers inherited the name of the game and misunderstood it to mean that the games must continue to be about endless warfare.

Shogun maybe was partially named due the era in Japan it portrayed but its also the style of the game over other similar at the time strategy games that focused much more on economy and technology development where in TW everything is based around fighting. Yeah- economy too support that fighting but its fairly basic and the focus is on battles which is not totally bad but it could be richer game if the focus broadened a bit by this point in series. Not like the battles have changed huge amount. So a bit more time could be spent on other parts.

[SirRobin]

it could be richer game if the focus broadened a bit by this point in series. Not like the battles have changed huge amount. So a bit more time could be spent on other parts.

I totally agree with that and I hope the developers do too, eventually.