How to fight the Persians...

[brymht]

I'm playing as the byzantines. How the heck to I fight the Persians. They come at me with stack upon stack of Armored Horse Archer and Royal Guard.

Case in point :

I was holding a bridge against a full stack of Persian Armored Horse. I had 2 Bantine Spear Wall guys, 2 low grade spearmen, 3 crossbow units, 2 bow units, and assorted light / missile and heavy cavalary units.

Literally, my spear units held back the tide for a good bit. But once they finally caved in it was a complete route. And they had fewer men than me! Sat there setting waves upon waves of arrow and bolts without a huge effect.

I'm playing on VH / H/

[RollingWave]

Though, those are some really elite units, the best idea is probably to hide behind walls. and wait for the Mongols

Also, not all wars are won by direct fighting, you can... for example defend against them on one front, and look for more opened targets along the black sea or Levant if they have holdings there, attack with a stack by sea, then hold that settlements and make them waste even more units attacking you.

[brymht]

Sadly, the MOngols are down to 1 territory. Its mainly just me and the Persians fighting for the middle East around Qasiriya and Edessa.

[JorisofHolland]

One unit of catapults can do wonders in the first moments of a bridge battle (before they engage with your troops) and when you choose to use flaming ammunition there will be some routing before engaging.

Otherwise, it's just about more spears and a chivalrous general if you want to win at the bridge.

[teks]

Bring in some javelins!!!
Forget the crossbows.
Cavalry don't matter too much in the bridge battle (but HA's can win the battle if you lose the bridge)

bring in 2-4 archers. The greeks have awesome professional archers. Set them to flaming arrows.
either let the enemy cross the bridge unopposed, or throw away one of your spear units so you can pepper them with arrows a little longer.
after the enemy crosses the bridge your javelins will win the battle for you. how?
set them up like this...
........|........... | <---bridge
........|........... |
........|........... |
____|EEEEEE|_____
... A..EEEEEEEEE..A <-----E= enemy soldiers
.....A... EEEEE... A <---A=3 units of acritae
......A............. A
........AAAAAAA

The trick is to set your javelins to guardmode so they keep shooting even if a few enemy units engage. HAve a couple Ippoakritai behind your javelins for even more javelin-throwing excitement.

To counter the persian horses bring in lots of Mourtatoi archers, javelins, and spearmen. When you set up your army Your archers will be the front line, but only se they can properly place the stakes. I find it better to form a Bulls horn style with stakes rather then a straight line. After battle begins your archers run to the back of your lines, and your javelins run to the archers old position. The spearmen will not be in the center of your army. They will be protecting your flanks. Put 2-handed axes in the center instead if you can.

note: this formation is too crazy to draw. I'm getting a screenshot, hold tight.

Here is the initial deployment phase with the archers in front, and the javelins directly behind them. As soon as the battle begins the archers will run into the back, and the javelins will take up their old position.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This is a side view of the same thing. You can see the javelin cavalry are already set up for a flank attack, and they are ready to counter the inevitable enemy flank. Also note how the spearmen are protecting the flanks rather then holding the front line. Your not just preparing for a flank attack, your expecting it.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Now that the battle has begun some shuffling is in order. The archers run to the back where they are protected from cavalry charges from all 4 directions. The javelins run to the front, and are set to guard mode. The varangian guard move up just a little bit. They have just enough space to get a charge bonus against anything that attacks the javelins.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As you can see the archers are Completely safe. Artillery can also be dropped in the center (i forgot about them). No cavalry unit will dare attack directly, so they will flank, but your spears are totally prepared, and thanks to your foot, and mounted javelin units on the sides they will take heavy losses. Your foot archers beat horse archers. The Ai also tends to bring their HA's too close to the javelins, where they get obliterated in seconeds.
A note: Don't let your javelins fall back. 1 on 1 they can beat any spear unit. Let them take any charges too. They are easy to replace. Do not let the enemy break your formation.


This formation Won me a heroic victory against two opposing armies( I used hungarian two-handed axes, since I didn't have varangian guard). The first army Sent infantry straight ahead, and had all the cavalry attempt a flank on the sides. The sides look vulnerable to a flank, but the enemy cavalry was decimated by javelins, while the spearmen finished the job. The infantry routed before engaging.
MY cavalry swooped in, and mopped up, and were now all prepared for a killer flank against the seconed army.

[Medkirtys]

And use stakes

[spH3RiCal]

Try to block all the narrow passages to your settlements with forts. Build a defense line. Fill the forts with mourtatoi, some spearmen and 2-3 units of heavy infantry. Use stakes and flaming arrows.

[nhinhonhinho]

A Gamey way to win the battle. Bring some Mourtatoi. First deploy your main army far enough from the bridge. Then let your archer deploy stakes at the end of the bridge. When the fight begin. Let your archers fire some round to draw the enemy in. Most time enemy's cavalry will try to chase you off. If that happen just let your archers run back to the main line and enjoy the enemy's cavalry die at the stakes (in most case their general will down too) .

If the enemy still there or move slowly to avoid stakes then swarm them with infantry to force them run through stakes

If you're going to fight HA faction with core infantry then try this tactic

Always bring generals with your army. each time you stop build fort. If they choose to attack you have the urban battle. Then use stakes,archers and spearman. If they don't just come closer to their settlements and built fort. If they capture your fort then besiege the fort and you got urban battle too

[teks]

The Mouratoi rock HA's. If you get them 2 armor upgrades the HA's arrows will bounce off your men. They got stakes, they got range, they got armor.
The javelins rock the melee horses, especially generals, but don't expect them to live through the experience. I always let them take the charge full on just to make sure they fire those jav's right.
If you get a few fortresses and build up the stables the cavalrii are great (although rare) HA's.
The maygar cavalry are pretty good too. They are much cheaper then the turkish cavalry for you.

[brymht]

So really, the key to beating HA is to NOT fight them in the open AT ALL.

Is that a tad overpowered?

[JorisofHolland]

So really, the key to beating HA is to NOT fight them in the open AT ALL.

Is that a tad overpowered?

Not at all. Look at history if you need any evidence: the Scythians against countless 'common' armies, the Persians against the Romans, the Saracens against the crusading Franks, etc.

[Ichon]

You can fight them in the open- the key is elevation. Claiming the top of a hill with either your own foot archers or HA incredibly minimizes your losses to missiles and gives bonus to your own missiles while if you only have cavalry then armor and shields forward and weather the arrow storm is the best. Especially if you can find a hill with forest on it. Sure you will take losses but if you hold steady until the HA being to get tired ( you don't have to wait until all their arrows are gone) then do one big charge over half the HAs will run away shortly after getting into melee and usually the AI does not control HA on skirmish that well if you flank from two sides. Especially make enemy general priority target.

My most dominating win came from from fighting a Mongol army as K-Shah... at start of late era K-Shah has many low loyalty generals. I moved them as fast as possible to the front and found a battle terrain that had sort of a valley- put half of army on hills on each side and many of the HA went into lower ground in between... let them fire for awhile and then charge eliminated 2/3 of their army at once. The final 1/3 then approached just as my armies climbed back up to the top of the hill to rest and wait a bit more.

If you get into a situation where is is flat ground and your heavy cavalry can't catch the enemy HAs then you are going to feel some pain. Just never turn the rear of your units directly toward HA and you might still win with large losses but its very hard to micro full stack army fighting an army of HA in that situation. Best advice... don't get into that situation.

Bridge battle should be easy- even in the situation you had without using any stakes you might have put your heavy cavalry in front to stop charge of the Persians cavalry and then charge with your spears- important is to keep them all on guard mode and withdraw your heavy cavalry when they lose close 50% while your javelins fire from sides of bridge when it bulges out as you withdraw your HC. Hold fire until then. Fire arrows from 1 archers the rest normal arrow. The crossbow you had- they should make steady kills on the Persians but it might take awhile depending on their quality and placement/range vs such good quality Persian units. To make it even easier you need some AP or other type infantry with bonus vs cavalry. Byz don't have access to a huge amount of that but you can get some and even 1 or 2 units make a big difference in each army.

[Mightypeon]

Well, in the hands of the AI they are annoying, but with enough Archers you can indeed deal with them.

However, Horse Archers do murder all non missle infantry, and all cavalry slower than them, and all cavalry faster but weaker then them. They are also very economical, meaning that they are an excellent way to cause massive casulties taking minimal damage in return.

[Mightypeon]

The other thing with Horse archers:

Horse arent exactly easy to supply, and the game does not feature attrition (I laugh at the notion of Sieging people and only having attrition in the besieged guys ;D )at all, and attrition could be quite a hazzle of Horse Archers, given that they take a lot of time to train.

[ShadowKiller2000]

Hmmm. Well it seems like the Romans would have a huge advantage in weight of numbers alone. Your spearmen have 200 men per unit, vs. 60 for the cavalry they are bringing (size is huge but no matter what unit size you use the ratio of men stays the same)

So I would do what the others have suggested with some slight tweaks. Bring 6-8 units of your proffesional spear men, 4 units of javelins, 4 of Mouratoi, 1 General, and the rest heavy infantry. If you want to use less spears bring in 1 or 2 cavalry or HA to help run down routers.

Place your stakes at the setup, and move the archers back. Have your spearmen stand behind the stakes, and block off the bridge.

Keep your javelins behind your spear men, and let them fire into the Persians. Archers on the far left and right flanks, this allows them to fire into the enemy from both sides as they move down the bridge, helps with LOS so they fire straight ahead and not up into the air. Your fire arrows will also be hitting a wider area for potential routing of the enemy.

In an open field battle you could use a similar army composition but find a hill, or forest and take the high ground.

[teks]

If you haven't noticed I love javelins, but ShadowKiller has a good point about the Roman army. The scoutoi get three armor upgrades, good attack/armor, and over 200 men. They are very resistant to cavalry.
The same goes for the early melee cavalry. Statistically they aren't as good as the Persains, but they have 82 men, they can get full armor upgrades, they are faster then heavy cavalry, and have a high attack (when compared to their lower charge). Take the formation I made. When the horses engage your line the cavalry try to flank the HA's from two sides. The AI does not handle this well, and the HA's are good as dead. These cavalry are actually decent against other melee cavalry too. Just don't let them take the charge. Their numbers plays a big part in their superiority.

I personally feel that the roman empire has one of the best armies to take against horse-heavy armies, because they have every counter unit. good javelins, good spears, great archers, Varagian Guard, and we also get cavalrii.

ooh! one more tip against HA's. Take off skirmish mode for your archers! The HA's will run right up point blank, and stop before contacting you. Call the AI's bluff, and pepper them with arrows. Be warned they only bluff the first time. Personally Id rather put a spearman in front to take the arrows, but hey, Even then, take skirmish mode off.

[ShadowKiller2000]

Good points! Taking skirmish mode off your archers works wonders when they are placed behind your spears. The only thing you have to be careful about is to make sure you do not get flanked.

[Mightypeon]

Yes, imho Skirmish mode is rather situational for any foot archer in general.

Although I have to say that, Templars also deal OK with nasty Horse archers. Largely because they can field more heavy cavalry than anybody else, make a little fire exchange, wait till horsies form a circle, charge.
Templars have Knights of St. Lazararus, Hospitallers and Confere Knights which all cost less than 300 in upkeep. While those guys arent exactly the best horsies, nearly nobody can sustain more heavy cavalry than the Crusaders upkeep wise. This "our upkeep is sooo cheap" theme also works with their Templar infantry.


I was also a bit amazed at how good heavy cavalry is in stopping charges.
I had a brainfart, and a bunch of Ridden Hospitallers was frontally charged by Arab Cavalry. The Arabs basically bounced off. I think that something may indeed be wrong if immobile Cavalry is better in taking a Cavalry charge than frontally aligned spearmen.

[ShadowKiller2000]

I have seen that happen as well. 1 group of Heavy Cav charging into an walking unit of heavy cav. The cavalry actually charging takes more losses!!!!

It is very odd to see.

[Losthief]

by some horse archers mercs...and post them on higher ground against there ha's and u'll win everytime...u get bonuses for hieght. (aim for turkopoles they got good range)