Although this might look stupid...

[ma junior]

Although this might look stupid and presented childish, this could work..

[Tiwaz]

I'll bite since I am bit bored.

For case 1 there is "minor" issue that it requires power to drag the balls through the seal.Force required to breach the seal (or go through) must be at least equal to pressure of water beneath it. Which in turn is ever higher deeper the seal is from water surface.

Second forgets the issue of moment. Generator would have to have lower moment required to run it than moment motor is able to put out. (in which case output of generator is lower than input need of motor) But since motor is powered by generator...

[ma junior]

ok, but if we researched into it very deeply, we COULD make something like this work, thats what i mean

and the second one i see no reason why it shouldnt work, a motor turns another motor which in turn powers the first motor, therefore creating an infinite loop

(sorry but next time i will present it in a less childish way the only reason pictures are there is to give a visualization, if i tried to use words you will all be confused)

[Tiwaz]

ok, but if we researched into it very deeply, we COULD make something like this work, thats what i mean

Only through feat of breaking laws of physics. Which, if we could do it, would make whole thing moot since we could essentially do anything we please.

and the second one i see no reason why it shouldnt work, a motor turns another motor which in turn powers the first motor, therefore creating an infinite loop

Inefficiencies ruin it if nothing else. Even if it DID work, it would be useless if it did not produce more energy than required to run it.

(sorry but next time i will present it in a less childish way the only reason pictures are there is to give a visualization, if i tried to use words you will all be confused)

Pictures are good enough. No need for CAD-pics.

[Juvenal]

With regard to the buoyancy machine, the potential energy gained during the rise of each ball to the surface cannot be greater than the energy required to insert a descending ball into the water in the first place. So in order to make the machine work, you must supply extra energy to overcome friction and any inefficiencies in the seal mechanisms.

As for the second machine, the angular momentum of the large wheel turning once and the small wheel turning ten times is identical, so no excess power is produced (although heat, friction etc. will still ensure the device requires a net input of energy to continue running).

We have always thought perpetual machines were impossible. Indeed, in classical mechanics they are. However Quantum Mechanics is a whole different ball-game... see the Casimir Effect.

[justicar5]

ok, but if we researched into it very deeply, we COULD make something like this work, thats what i mean

and the second one i see no reason why it shouldnt work, a motor turns another motor which in turn powers the first motor, therefore creating an infinite loop

(sorry but next time i will present it in a less childish way the only reason pictures are there is to give a visualization, if i tried to use words you will all be confused)

as phier said, build the float device in your bath tub, you wouldn't need a generator as the output, just a wheel to turn, if the wheel actually turns, then it would work. (It wont turn btw it's basically an egyptian irrigation winch [which I can't remmeber the proper name of] running backwards)

[Prince of Darkness]

I think I've read somewhere that infinite power is impossible.

[ma junior]

Hmm quantum physics is extremely complicating, especially about the cat being both dead and alive......
anyways im still convinced the wheels and motors will work, as the bigger wheel would produce more spin and more energy, so the second generator will have more than enough energy to keep the small one working and excess to light a small light bulb forever. infinite movement is possible

the air and ball one may work if we added things to it and stuff to combat friction

[Phier]

Hmm quantum physics is extremely complicating, especially about the cat being both dead and alive......
anyways im still convinced the wheels and motors will work, as the bigger wheel would produce more spin and more energy, so the second generator will have more than enough energy to keep the small one working and excess to light a small light bulb forever. infinite movement is possible

the air and ball one may work if we added things to it and stuff to combat friction

One of the great things about youth is you have a lot of free time on your hands. Such a device would be easy to make, you don't even need a generator to prove the concept, just the mechanism in the first case.

For about $30 dollars you could make it with PVC and ping pong balls, I recommend you try it! The earth desperately needs easier energy sources and maybe you are just the man to do it!

[Gordon Freynman]

I'm a little late but just my two cents...

The first one is essentally a tidal generator, except instead of using water current it is using buoyancy. Even if it worked as intended the energy it is producing is coming from the ocean, which in turn is coming primarily from the Sun, the rotation of the Earth, and the gravitational pull of the Moon, and there are a hell of a lot more effective ways to get energy from all of them.

Juvenal was spot on with the second one. Basically no net energy would be produced even if it was 100% efficient; the only energy in the system would be what you put in when you first turned the big wheel.

[Tiwaz]

Hmm quantum physics is extremely complicating, especially about the cat being both dead and alive......
anyways im still convinced the wheels and motors will work, as the bigger wheel would produce more spin and more energy, so the second generator will have more than enough energy to keep the small one working and excess to light a small light bulb forever. infinite movement is possible

No, wheel produces no energy. It transfers energy created by motor. Big wheel can exert only as much energy on little wheel as the output of motor turning it is. (minus inefficiencies)

Thus, amount of energy produced by rotation of small wheel is at maximum amount big wheel exerts on it. Which would require 100% efficiency, which is impossible.

the air and ball one may work if we added things to it and stuff to combat friction

Assume there is no friction.
I and some others have pointed out that there is issue of pushing the ball into water. Surface of the water will resist it with full force of water displaced by tube (which you keep empty of water with seal) and ball (which tries to replace water as it theoretically pushes through the seal).

[Sphere]

Actually Comrade Wiggum is dead wrong. Even if 100% efficient the first one would produce zero net energy. (Ill do the problem using a cube to simplify things, an actual sphere would require integrals).

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The work to "push" a cube out the bottom the tube would be ...

Pressure X Area X Distance moved =

(Density of Water) X (Water Depth) X (Area of Cube Side) X (Length of Cube Side)= -ρdV

The work done as the cube floats to the surface would be ...

Boyant force X Distance Moved =

(Density of Water) X (Volume of Cube) X (Water Depth) = +ρdV

Net work = -ρdV +ρdV = 0


For the second one, obviously even if 100% efficient the net work would be zero.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Work of the Motor

Torque X Distance rotated

(Belt Tension) X (10 x Smaller radius) X ( 1/10 Smaller Radius X 2 π) =+Tr^2(2π)


Work produced by the Generator

Torque X Distance rotated

(Belt Tension) X (Smaller radius) X ( Smaller Radius X 2 π) = -Tr^2(2π)

Net work = = Tr^2(2π) - Tr^2(2π) = 0

[Gordon Freynman]

Actually Comrade Wiggum is dead wrong. Even if 100% efficient

I was running under the (false) assumption that it worked as intended (which I clearly stated), not just that it was 100% efficient.

[Elfdude]

Yeah, this shows some serious misunderstanding of basic physics. Both machines would produce a total excess energy even at maximum theoretical efficiency (100%) of 0. The best they could ever possibly do is create a stable state in a system completely free from entropy or friction or any other of the billion things you lose energy to.

However it is possible to pull energy from nothing utilizing the casamir effect. Still it'd be monsterously difficult to create enough energy to power a digital watch much less a lightbulb. Basically this is because of the laws of thermodynamics. The first law states that energy can neither be created or destroyed merely directed and altered. As your machine is moving unless it is perfectly free of outside forces (gravity, magnetism, all sorts of quantum and large scale effects) it will lose energy to overcoming these forces, gradually it will continue to slow down in the same way that those magnetic office toys gradually slow down and stop. Even the best balanced machines cannot negate this they can merely prolong it and were they to manage 100% efficiency they would still have to overcome the second law.

The second law basically states that energy will move naturally from a warm area into a cold area. This effect is called entropy and has the effect of losing energy constantly to the outside environment. Even the best insulators can't negate this. Even if they could your machine would still gradually reach an equilibrium where it could do nothing other than continue its motions.

So no, those will not result in infinite energy or even a surplus of energy even with the theoretical maximum limit of physics. Assuming we can ever alter the laws of physics perhaps but at that point your machines are rather moot because we can do whatever we like at that point.

This is why all energy systems rely upon upsetting the balance of whatever they're attempting to get energy from. Wind power draws it's energy from the upset atmosphere as it heats and cools unevenly and as the earth spins below it. Solar power draws it's energy both from the thermal heat of the sun used to boil water which then rises to produce energy, and from photovoltaics which utilize the photons to excite electrons. Fossil fuel power boils water to produce steam which then spins a turbine. All of these actions are not producing energy but rather taking it from sources already availible. All we do is set the reaction into motion. The harder the system to unbalance the more energy but also the more potential danger. For example upsetting the weak nuclear force results in fission which can produce power or a criticality reaction.

[Phier]

Guys some lessons are best learned directly

[ma junior]

Guys some lessons are best learned directly

you saying we should try it out???

[DaVinci]

Yes, that's what he said: Build your own model(s), haptic experiments are always helpful to understand basic physics.

Besides this, you could research in the history of perpetual machine efforts, it's a quite old hat, but i guess you know that already?