For East and West mod

[Polycarpe]

Hi, first of all, thank you for the modders who take the time to do such magnificent work and also the people who take time to read this topic.

I'm not well known in term of work in TWC but I decide to do a mod that maybe will interest some people.

My mod will consist to remake all the roster of the kwarezmian, turks, egyptian, and moors by mixing units both from SS and Broken Crescent as well make some little tweaks with other factions and removing all the similar units to make free slots for new units!!

The first thing I was thinking is: I think you have to be a computerwise to do modding . After search throughout the forum, I collected enough skills to mod and I made tests and I was surprised impressed by the results.

Right now, I've made some tweaks and did already half of the egyptian roster:
Here some change I've made so far:
The roman Empire have been modified a little.

-varangian guard are now exceptional troops with an increased stat and available at the beginning from the imperial barrack but for balancing, I've made it so it will take 20 turns to recruit one unit.

-The scholarii, the siphanatores and the dismounted athanatoi (didn't remember clearly their name) are available from the beginning, and as for varangian guard, it will take around 12-15 turns (I have to decide it) to recruit them, but after the event that will normally will recruit them, their availability will be the same as normally seen.

-The menaulvatoi are now professional late troops recruited in the castle barrack available after the heavy mail event.

-Pronoarii are now available after the heavy mail event since the pronoarii system was created around 1200.

-Archonponctoulai are now a late professional troops recruited for the earl/king stable with the skin from the BC's proniarii. They are strong but few availability. (still I need maybe to balance it a little right now it's as strong as the pronoarii so I will reduce his stat a little.

Future project for the Roman: dismounted pronoarii and a new unit the inglinoi; mercenary longbowmen from britain and recruited in the highest tier of the mercenary barrack.

-I've always love the longbowmen but imo, I've found them a little weak in SS, so I've give them armor piercing, increased cost and reduce attack for balancing.

-I increase the number of siege engines: ballista 6, catapult 4, trebuchet and mangonel 3. And increased the cost.

I would like to share my work but I need permission from the community of BC, the conceptors of the byzantine roster and the rest of the forum.

If you have suggestion, please share you thoughts, what I want is to make the game the most fun for everyone.

And one more thing, I'm a new modder, I can create new units, change skins, play with the EDB and EDU, but for the rest I don't know how. Thank you for your time to read my project, I call it : For East and West mod.

[RollingWave]

i'm already doing something similar in my thread... though I havn't touched on the Turks / Kwarzem / Byzantium yet (plan on doing at least the first two though)

BC, as long as your not using the Indian units Alpha_Delta has given premission to anyone to use them as long as you acknowledge that your using them.

[Polycarpe]

At least good news, but If you don't mind if we could share suggestions and what we've done. I have good ideas for the egypt and kwarezmian in term of rosters. What do you think about it. I think both of us want to make an excellent rosters for muslims.

[RollingWave]

well you can read my thread just a little below... but...

For now, my roster is...

The key event that divides Egypt is the arrival of Saladin and the switch from Fatimid to Ayyubid dynasty, although the Ayyubids were shortlived the Mamluk dynasties that followed still largely continued the work started by Saladin, so in my roster setting a lot of the roster will change around that event, which right now I plan to use the battle of Hattin event (maybe not the most realistic but it'll do)

Fedual:
Iqta'dar (representing Amirs or wealthy tribal chieftens, I changed them to a more lancer like unit.)

Barrack: Berber infantry (javelin soliders, replaced with Kurdish Javelin after Hattin event)
Arab spearmen (I changed them to a two handed spearmen unit.)
Sudanese infantry (using the tribesman slot, i'll change the name to something else though)
Armenian infantry (replaced with Al-Halqa after the Hattin event)
Ghulam infantry (replaced with Mamluk infantry after the Hattin event)
Heavy spearmen (i'm still debating this unit a bit, though probably will put it in as a bit of a eastern egg unit)

Stable : Bedouin cavalry
Arab cavalry
Armenian cavalry (replaced with Al-Halqa cavalry after the Hattin event)
Ghulam cavalry ( replaced with Mamluk cavalry after the event, basically I changed the ole melee mamluk to Al-halqa cav and left the archer as normal mamluk cav)

Archery range: desert archers
Nubian archers
Heavy archers (same as heavy spearmen)


Cities: Spear milita
axe and archer milita (axe milita borrow from the moors)
Saracen milita
Halberd milita

The rest is the same, hand gunners , royal mamluk / khassaki etc... though I plan on removing the restriction on Khasski, other faction's things like King's men etc aren't restricted to their capital. though all Mamluk type soliders will only appear after the Hattin event, including Khassaki.


You can look up some of my posts in the Roz mod to see my history debate on why I choose to make up the roster this way, suffice to say it's based on reading the cambridge history of egypt and several other major academic work, so i'm fairly confident in the representation.

[Polycarpe]

Hmm, interesting, I agreed with you it's not really precise the Battle of Hattin but it's a good event for the mamluk rising. Here my idea of the egyptian roster:

Feudal:
Tawashi cavalry (nearly the same as Itqa'dar)
dismounted tawashi (heavy mace infantry)
kurdish noble lancer (available after the event)

Stable:
Ghulam cavalry
royal ghulam cavalry
arab cavalry
askari cavalry (This will replace the ghulam cavalry)
Royal mamluk (that will replace the royal ghulam)
mamluk archer

Archery:
nubian archer
desert archer
archert militia
mamluk infantry (Like BC, these mamluk are much like ottoman Infantry but with better training and stats)

Barrack
askari infantry (replace the ghulam infantry)
arab infantry
nubian spearmen
nubian infantry
nubian javelinmen
ghulam infantry
mamluk tabardarriyya
Kurdish javelinmen (I think it will replace the nubian after the event, with an increased stat)
spear militia
peasant infantry

Cities
spear militia
archer militia
saracen militia
halberd militia

That is my idea but I do like your two-handed spearmen but I remove the khassaki since the royal ghulam/royal mamluk are the personal guards for the sultan.

I would use the mamluk skin from BC and same thing as you, they will replace most ghulam troops after the Battle of Hattin.

[RollingWave]

Hmm, interesting, I agreed with you it's not really precise the Battle of Hattin but it's a good event for the mamluk rising. Here my idea of the egyptian roster:

Feudal:
Tawashi cavalry (nearly the same as Itqa'dar)
dismounted tawashi (heavy mace infantry)
kurdish noble lancer (available after the event)

Stable:
Ghulam cavalry
royal ghulam cavalry
arab cavalry
askari cavalry (This will replace the ghulam cavalry)
Royal mamluk (that will replace the royal ghulam)
mamluk archer

Archery:
nubian archer
desert archer
archert militia
mamluk infantry (Like BC, these mamluk are much like ottoman Infantry but with better training and stats)

Barrack
askari infantry (replace the ghulam infantry)
arab infantry
nubian spearmen
nubian infantry
nubian javelinmen
ghulam infantry
mamluk tabardarriyya
Kurdish javelinmen (I think it will replace the nubian after the event, with an increased stat)
spear militia
peasant infantry

Cities
spear militia
archer militia
saracen militia
halberd militia

That is my idea but I do like your two-handed spearmen but I remove the khassaki since the royal ghulam/royal mamluk are the personal guards for the sultan.

I would use the mamluk skin from BC and same thing as you, they will replace most ghulam troops after the Battle of Hattin.

Well, on a historically debating perspective....

A. Tawashi was a term for heavy cavalry, though the way William of Tyre and other contempory historian used it it seem that it was merely a description for relative equipment and not actual forms of units, William of Tyre essentially just used Tawashi to describe any realtively heavier armed Islamic cavalries while using the term Qaraghulam to describe lighter armed onces.

B. Kurdish nobles obviously played a large role during the Ayyubid period, but that was just a span of 80 years, where as they weren't nearly as important during the Fatimid or Mamluk era... so it's a bit unrealistic that they're a unit unless you only plan on using them for a very short period of time.

C. While the Fatimids did use slave soliders, and some were pretty elite, it wasn't nearly the same scale post Ayyubid Egypt, and most were serving as more basic units (the Nubians espeically). thus a Royal Ghulam unit seems overkill.

D. Askaris means either soliders, or more specifically, spearmen, there isn't a whole lot of regard of that term being specifically used during any of the Egyptian periods, Al-Halqa were the main term used for professional non-Mamluk soliders.

E. The Bedouins were the most common tribal levies used during pretty much all periods, thus it's almost a must that they're a unit.

F.The Fatimid caliph was founded by Berber forces from Tunis, and Berber military were a huge element in it's military and political affairs, thus it's a must that there are some Berber representations.


I also forgot to meaniton in my post that I also made a light horse archer unit called Wafidiyya, which was the term used by the Mamluk dynasty for Turkish and Mongol tribes seeking asylum in exchange for military service during their time.


I'll point out the historical aspect really quickly...

Fatimid era : Fatimid were infantry heavy , and their biggest charactoristics was the seperation of military based on ethnics, the main components were Berbers (original, mostly infantries, some cavalires). Blacks (mostly archers, with a fair share of heavish infantry as well). Turks (mostly horse archers, but they were purged in the 1070s after a disastorous civil war). There were also ghilam (Ghulam) made up of different ethnicities (including Armenians, the Vizier during the late Fatimid was mostly Armenians and he brought in Armenian forces). Local egyptians, espieclaly Bedouins, were also used as tribal levies / milita / semi-professionals.


So to represent them, the keys are...

A. infantry heavy
B. clear multi ethnic army


Ayyubid / Mamluk era : there's a significant continuation between the two, so I'll just continue here. while they inherit some of the Fatimid's infantry tradtions they gradually became very cavalry oriented, though that's also mostly due to the need of fighting the Mongols in the field, when the situation calls they still used.

The components of the Mamluk era was pretty clear cut.

Khassaki : imperial guards

Royal Mamluk : Mamluks directly under the Sultan's command

Regular Mamluk : Mamluks under the command of individual amirs

Al-Halqa : professional free soldiers, mostly under the command of the sultan

non professionals : mostly similar to the Fatimids , various tribal levies espeically Bedouins and to a lesser extend Kurds, and settled arabs forming miltia / semi-professionals / specialists. the most famous of these were the Wafidiyya, which were Turkish / Mongol tribal levies, they mostly migrated to Syria after the Mongol invasion , and often formed the first line of defense against the Il-Khan, though for obvious reasons the Mamluks didn't have full trust in them.

Some black soliders continue to be used, though they appear to have lost a lot of importance espeically in the Mamluk period.

[Polycarpe]

Thanks for the course of history, it was interesting but, just a question? If the Berber has founded the Fatimid, then the rosters of the Moors in terms of tribes are nearly the same, both of them use black and berber troops. But the fatimid use bedouin troops but was Moors's specific tribe?

I suggest for the mamluk infantry as combination troops of archer/swordsmen just like in BC, what was your idea for them, mamluk infantry like the ghulam infantry?

Then, instead of using the arab infantry/cavalry, it will be better historically and meaning to name them askari.

[RollingWave]

Thanks for the course of history, it was interesting but, just a question? If the Berber has founded the Fatimid, then the rosters of the Moors in terms of tribes are nearly the same, both of them use black and berber troops. But the fatimid use bedouin troops but was Moors's specific tribe?

I suggest for the mamluk infantry as combination troops of archer/swordsmen just like in BC, what was your idea for them, mamluk infantry like the ghulam infantry?

Then, instead of using the arab infantry/cavalry, it will be better historically and meaning to name them askari.

There are some subtle differences, the Moors at 1100 was being ruled by the Sanhaja confederations, (aka the Almoravids ) they were Berbers , but they were relatively more nomadic and fierce onces, the Fatimids' original military force is largely based on Tunisian Kutama tribe berbers, but obviously they didn't have the same access as the Moors (to illustrate how important they were though, the Fatimid had a offical agency called Kutama affairs agency just to deal with these tribal warriors and their families whom have settled in Egypt.).

I gave the Moors a lot more Berber units, while the Fatimids only get Berber infantry (javelin) Berber Cavalry (desert cavalry) and desert archers (which could be either berber or bedouins) the moors on the other hand have at my count has 5 distinctly Berber unit (infantry / spearmen / cavalry and two fedual units) and add to that desert archers.

Moors used blacks too, but they didn't use it at the same scale as the Fatimids, whom had full division of armies composed of them, where as the Almoravid sometimes brought a few black tribes along but it wasn't really a huge element of their armies, of course, the Moorish black guards (which was basically their ghulam) were obviously as their name imply, blacks, but I basically just used the Dismounted Ghulam to represent that unit. (though I might reconsider that in the future if I can free up more roster slots)

Yeah, I have my Mamluk infantry basically as a dismounted Mamluk , aka same weapons (bows and mace).

I'm using the name Faris (which basically means horsemen, I turned the Sipahi name back to it's old one, the term Faris is pretty generic, so Arab cav obviously fits that profile the best.) for Arab Cavalry, while using the term Arab Rijal (Rijal is a term they used for infantry) for the Infantry, I THINK i'll use Askari for the Heavy Spearmen unit. (and Ramat for Heavy archers)

[RollingWave]

kwarzemid is though to do, because they're by far the shortest lived faction among the 4 muslims...

basically the current SS roster is alright, I'd suggest
A. more Daylami units
B. replaces the weird saracen archer with turkish archers (The Kwarzims were pretty heavily turkish influenced)
C. maybe a afgan noblemen type unit.

[Polycarpe]

Ok I'll do the kwarezmian and I'll send it to you my work, hopefully it will contribute to your project.