Carthage campaign

[Tidybeard]

I tried this one a few months ago and it ended in miserable failure. Inexcusable, you might think, as I'm only a M/M player. In any case, I've gone with the same side again and it's going better, but need 1 or 2 tips.

I've got control of all of the Western end of North Africa from the Numidians, as far East as Lupcius Magna (sorry if that's spelt wrong), and still hold Corduba, Palma, Sardinia and Lilibayum. Sicily's my main issue as the Greeks have several full stacks and are at war with me (The Scipii still have the northern city but they don't seem to want to attack each other apart from at sea....aaaargh!). I fought one off stack last night but there's another on the border at Syracuse waiting to have another go.

Apart from the problem of Sicily, I've got only about 17K and I'm not one of the biggest spenders when it comes to my army because of it's upkeep cost. Just me being a wuss I suppose. What's my best expansion option from here so that I can make a good chunk of money a.s.a.p? By the way, I've set it to 0 turn recruitment so I can raise the necessary troops quite quickly.

Thanks in advance, sorry for the waffle!

[Genius of the Restoration]

A few questions: what year is it, what population levels have you got, and what is your army makeup like?

I might be able to tailor my advice better if I knew what your situation in those areas was, but here's a starter. The best way to get rich is to use the sea trade, and the best area to do that in in Greece. Send two full stacks there comprised mostly of Sacred Band and Poeni hoplite units and once you've got your cities, exterminate their populations for quick cash. Your economy will love the extra trade. Get the Colossus for maximum effect. Hoplites should be able to hold the settlements easily enough from any attacks that come from whoever is in Greece at the moment (Brutii?).

[shikaka]

Carthage is big in the beginning, but actually quite prone to crash, the AI does that all the time.


What is important to know as Carthage:
- short trade routes are the most profitable
- Carthage is growing very quickly
- your best infantry (Sacred band) comes from the the awesom temple of Bhaal
- you can use elephants to bring down wooden gates


According to this:

- capture all western med islands (Sicily and Balearics, and if you can, keep on to Sardinia)
- capture all western med coastal cities (most important are Tingi and Narbo Martius for the big money Tingi-Cordoba/Narbo-Balearic trade)
- kick the romans and greek out of Sicily


Battle plan:

In the beginning you have really no choice but to spam roundshield cav and iberian infantry. With some experience they can stand up to hastati and hold until your roundshields charge the romans in the back.
When I mean spam I mean like have about 8 roundshield cavalry in year early main army.

Carthage is growing fast so you will have Sacred Band infantry much earlier then the romans have legions, you will win simply against romans with like 6-7 sacred band infantry unit.



Making money:
- upgrade docks fast
- upgrade markets a few levels
- _cut army maintenance bills_! If you don't have a need for troops in one region either ship them where you will use them, or simply disband!
- as garrison, use cheap units, not iberians, lybians. Peasants are the most cost effective, but that seems very dumb (I use town watch usually)
- don't build barracks/stables/archery range in provinces with small population and where you don't plan recruitments, it is just a waste of money if you plan to recruit mainly in Cordoba/Carthage for example.


In general the build order should be:
- town hall line first
- then temples (if there are public order problems) or docks
- then markets (only build until it gives you spies. Maybe assasins in a few provinces)
Army buildings/walls should generally be last. Exceptions may be towns like Caralis which come under constant attack.

[Genius of the Restoration]

You can always count on getting good advice from shikaka.

[Tidybeard]

Wow, cheers for that!

Corduba and Carthage are having the usual squalor and dissent issues for big cities. Can't remember what year it is but I can't be more than 50-or-so turns in. As for my armies, they're generally a mish-mash of typical early units (Round Shields, Iberian Infantry and Skirmishers).

[blackwatersix]

I never seem to be able to hold Sicily when I play as Carthage... I always have to build a nice army in Carthage then cross and re-take Sicily..

[shikaka]

I never seem to be able to hold Sicily when I play as Carthage... I always have to build a nice army in Carthage then cross and re-take Sicily..

Next time you start a game with Carthage, use the stack what have the elephants in them.
There should be an army (with the mentioned elephants) near Carthage or Lilybaum, I don't remember which.

That small army is enough to kill the romans on Sicily (if you have problems, hire the mercenary units on Sicily).


The romans have: usually two stacks, which alltogether contain 2 family member bodyguards, an archer and a few hastati (4-5?). Out of this, only the family members are tough, but the elephants can take them out (and later they can function as a ram on the roman city).

The greek have something like: 1 family member, 2-3 hoplites and maybe a few archers. Just siege them and wait it out if you are confident.
(there will be a greek diplomat in the island, you can use him to get peace + trade rights. After Siracuse falls, the greeks simply ignore the west mediterran, so you can get peace)

[Tidybeard]

It's tough going - I just fought a massive, multi-reinforcement battle vs the Greeks outside Lilybaeum (sp?). Managed to win thanks to my AI armies (I got competely routed) but there's loads more to do to take Sicily. On the up-side, I'm gaining ground in Spain.

[Punic Hoplite]

I'm not one of the biggest spenders when it comes to my army because of it's upkeep cost

Sounds like a true Suffete of Carthage


Try if you can to take Messana from the Romans. That'll provide you with more production power to face the Greeks with. Not to mention boost naval trade.
When facing the Greeks or Romans, make sure you have cavalry advantage. The Greeks have terrible cavalry, and you need this to win, as the Greeks have Spartans and Armoured Hoplites at their disposal, of which only your Sacred Band can compete with (and both can be trained in Syracuse). Also use elephants. They're absolute beasts, and will help you route the flanks (never charge them straight into a phalanx, make them attack from the sides or rear). Once some start routing, the other troops will suffer a morale loss, and will be easier to beat.

As for Spain, you have roughly the same units as they do early game. So make sure you have plenty of Round Shields, as I've seen Spain spam skirmishers before, and infantry can't catch them as easily Once you have Spain under your control, make mines. Iberia is rich in minerals, which will help fill your coffers for the Sicilian War.


So. tl:dr
Use cavalry (and elephants) to your advantage.
Take Messana and slowly wear down the Greeks.
Spain is rich. Take it!

[Tidybeard]

Done a bit of troop re-structuring; taken most off Sicily and left a single full-stack garrison at Lilybaeum. I've found I can fend off a Greek invasion easily, if I let the besieging army right into my city, the surround their hoplites at the entrances to the plaza. Silly Greeks.

Moved my other troops across North Africa to Spain. I found getting rid of rebel armies on the way most useful - my income shot up when I cleared them away from Cirta and Carthage.

Now I've got enough money to finish taking Spain then raise enough men to give Sicily a good hammering. My sneak attack on mainland Greece failed miserably last night, I didn't have enough said cavalry and got trounced by their experienced phalanx and Spartans. My God, those Spartans are top-class. Lesson learned!

[Genius of the Restoration]

Spartans can be tough. Take some slingers against them. Once you get around their shield you should be able to take them down fairly easily, even with the low missile attack of bullets. Don't engage them while they're in phalanx formation.

[daxypoo]

the key to winning early comes from executing near flawless early moves

you need to spam an early navy to sink the hordes of roman armies that will flood your territories
have your navy scattered to be able to deal multiple strikes on a single turn and preserve movement points
nothing quite like sinking that full 20 stack of family members and legions before they land in n africa

[tudor93]

like shikaka said, you must use in the first turn your army located in sicily (it's your king, (he is like 60 years old, with some luck he will not die of age the second turn) some elefants, mercenary slingers and some round shileds and you can hire some mercenary hoplites) ; deafeat the roman army standing outside the city, a general bodyguard and ....hmmm ... 2 hastati (i'm not sure) , then go siege their city, don't wait 1-2 turns to build rams because he will bring reinforcements by sea, use the elefants to break the wooden walls

[Punic Hoplite]

Or you can use your spy that is on Sicily to watch and wait till the Romans besiege Syracuse, and then have Hanno and said army attack Messana. Only their Faction Leader or Heir will be there as garrison. Simply fight it out using the merc hoplites on the island and your own Hanno. Minimum casualties for a nice prize

Then the Romans will take Syracuse, and you can attack them there, and starve them out. Sicily will be yours, and Greece will still be on good terms with you. You can then wait for either an army to show up around Messana to retake it, or launch an assault into Italy Proper.

[goro]

i play in a hotseat with carthage and used the elephant unit to take messana while romans were at syracuse.problem is the autoresolve.romans will kick my ass if attack them early.

[Punic Hoplite]

i play in a hotseat with carthage and used the elephant unit to take messana while romans were at syracuse.problem is the autoresolve.romans will kick my ass if attack them early.

That's when I recommend taking the battle into your own hands. Auto Resolve makes many units WAY OP, taking them into battle manually gets rid of that.

[... where did it run?]

The ugliest thing about carthage for me it's early armies of it

Iberian infantry ... 170 upkeep cost for such a nuisense? Gladly round shield spam works it out a bit. Still I would prefer horsed greek farmers more than those. But you have no choice here.

Despite of this, Carthage gets few elephants from the start, which are just OP to have so early in game. Strike Scipii first. Use Elephants to kill general bodyguards and to rout hestati. Then assualt their city in sicily. Same elephants will take down the walls like rams. Soon after that, hire some mercinary hoplites as garison and sail for Capital of scipii. SPQR armies won't help him out, becouse you won't need to wait a turn or few for siege engines to be ready. Elephants are your living siege weapons.

After you take care of scipii you can rest and maybe get back caralis from those nasty red romans.

Crushing of the annoying blue romans should be done in first few turns.

Once it's done, prepere for long struggle. Maybe take some procivinces in north africa to enchance trade. Push out greeks out of your island. Keep spaniards and gauls at bay at Iberia (maybe even expand if you have enough resources)

At the time you should already be able to train lybian spearmen (not very impressive unit, but can hold the line against hestati. That's all you need from them - holding the line) and elephants to scare the crap out of the hestati/principes. Maybe few cav units to chase down routers.

Invade Italy. Start from striking at capital of brutii. Good luck.

And don't waist your money on inberian infantry ... of course in some cases they are must have, but don't rely on them. Not worth the cost.

Also, that's already been said: Docks = money.

At the time you should already be able to train lybian spearmen (not very impressive unit, but can hold the line against hestati. That's all you need from them - holding the line) and elephants to scare the crap out of the hestati/principes. Maybe few cav units to chase down routers.

I though I'll take a minute to describe hows it work.

The idea. Main line - Lybian spearmen. Now I can't tell the exact number of units to be well balanced. But for 6 Lybian spearmen 2 elephant units should work wonders. Leave some space for round shield cavalry. 2 or 3 (the 3rd one might help to chase away javelin infantry which can hurt elephants a bit) per army. Those guys can be retrained easily and cheaply so you should't care much if you loose one or few of them in battle. Nor you shouldn't. They don't participate in actuall combat. But plays very important role in chasing down routers before they come back from routing, which is not that dangerous.

If you still got space and if you have ability to recruit them - unit of slingers or maybe two units. Solely for archers. But you can do just perfectly without them, since additional round shield cav unit can chase them away if needed in most cases. Just watch out fo heavier cav. enemy archers started to shoot your round shields? PERFECT ! that means no firing arrows are falling on your elephants.

As the battle emerges push your lybian spearmen battleline twordwards roman infantry (principes/hestati), stay sharp, there might be few annoying skirmishers to chase too. At that time, move your elephants to the sides of your battleline, still keep them behind tough. (Also There is always good to have additional elephant unit, to deal with possible roman cavalry flankers since elephants beats cav easily). Once your battle line clashed with your opponent's, order your elephants to step forward. (be careful, not to distrput your own battleline formations in the process.) And then they reach the good spot, start trampling them from both sides. Best is to select a unit in a middle for both elephants groups. So that they would go causing chaos and installing fear to everyone who stands in their way. If enemy won't rout at first second, it will once both elephant units reaches the middle. As you are in the middle, order your elephants to move back to the sides.

Now important: elephants brakes formations and causes enemy units to rout, not actually kill them efficiently. Use your light cav to engage the routers ASAP.

Late army: Lybian spearmen are replaced by peoni/sacred band. Elephants are replaced by war/armoured elephants. And cavalry.. well, to pay 340 per turn for cavalry who just chases down routers and skirmishers doesn't seem efficient to me. Long shields should be good enough improvment. While also being easy to retrain.

The only problem for these kinds of army... you need constantly ship those dear awsome sweet elephants from africa : |


hmm hope this helps and I managed to write it in understandable broken english xD

[shikaka]

Late army: Lybian spearmen are replaced by peoni/sacred band. Elephants are replaced by war/armoured elephants.

Actually I have my doubts about using lybians/poeni infantry.

Basicly the AI builds at least a level 2 barrack everywhere, so you can retrain your iberians after every battle, and get good XP for them.

However, lybians and poeni can only be retrained at core cities.

And since poeni is on the same level as sacred band... Well I usually don't upgrade barrack above iberians. Only the temple of bhaal
Especially early, you can save quite some money with skipping barracks upgrades

[goro]

doesnt the sacred band need 2 turns to recruit?i dont remember.havent played for a long time.i started again recently.
if they do it means poeni are a must in your armies.an army of elites brings too much economic burden

[shikaka]

doesnt the sacred band need 2 turns to recruit?i dont remember.havent played for a long time.i started again recently.
if they do it means poeni are a must in your armies.an army of elites brings too much economic burden

But usually they are available earlier then the poeni. Also, by the time you get them, your main cities are well developed and you can offer an army based around them.
Most players - including myself - build temples and docks after a city upgrade, and barracks only later. When you do the Bhaal temple upgrade they are ready to be produced. Maybe 5-10 turn earlier then poeni (if you build barracks at all).


In general I think it is very important to have troops which are retrainable easily but sacred band are so good, and available so early, that you will simply stomp everyone.
With 6-8 of these guys (and a little cavalry backup) you can wipe the floor with the starting Senate army with minimal losses. With pre-marian troops the roman AI don't have anything what can stop Sacred Band.