National Revolutions 1821-1848

[Thiky83]

We help where we can!

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Italian legion's flag

[Sotericus]

We help where we can!

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Italian legion's flag

Beautiful Flags. Once we're moving on to the other factions we'll add this one, too. Could you post a smaller jpg with one of the flags similar as we done for Wallachia and Moldavia? Thx.

[Wallachian]

I just saw the last units, the roster is great +rep





So we have for infantry:

• Line Infantry
• Pandurs
• Tirailleurs
• Dorobanti
• Geandarmi Pedestri
• Potecasi
• Vanatori Domnesti
• Haiduci Predati

And for cavalry:

• Rosiori
• Calarasi
• Slujitori

The number of units is balanced and also varied. This should be a great gaming experience.

A few things to note on the diplomacy screen: how come Moldova and Wallachia are major powers? And also it Croatia and Hungary are factions from the start? Shouldn't they be emerging? Seeing as they were part of Austria. Serbia needs to be a faction too, it was the first balkan nation to break from the Ottomans.

Serbian uniform of 1809-1810 uprising

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Serbian private uniform 1845

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Serbian Kings Guard 1860

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[Sotericus]

I just saw the last units, the roster is great +rep




A few things to note on the diplomacy screen: how come Moldova and Wallachia are major powers? And also it Croatia and Hungary are factions from the start? Shouldn't they be emerging? Seeing as they were part of Austria. Serbia needs to be a faction too, it was the first balkan nation to break from the Ottomans.

Thank you, Wallachian.

Well, when I started modding (that is at the very beginning) I used Husserl's startpos for the Balkan.mod and I left them as such. These explains why they are major powers. This can be changed without great trouble. Afterwords I thought having Croatia and Hungary as factions (which in the game are protectorates of the Austrian Empire) would be a nice way of individualizing them. In the game they act as proper vassals at least at the beginning so there isn't much of a change in the game dynamics. Later on we might think developing these factions, too.

The fact that Serbia isn't a faction is due to the limited region system you have in nappy and to the obscure AI which both make Ottoman Empire to be something of a wreck and not a real threat. I thought compensating this by giving them Serbia, which gained suzeranity (not sovereignty ) only after the Convention of Akerman, in 1826m though you are right, the Principality obtained some de facto autonomy before that, as a result of the second Serbia Uprising. See more about the Principality of Serbia here. However I considered that one of the first missions in the Wallachian campaign would be liberating Serbia.

I really hope to find a way in making the Ottomans a more challenging faction with only one region and put back Serbia in the game.

[Sotericus]

Sorry about multiposting, but this is on a different topic.

In relation with the Wallachian roster.

There will still be some "surprise" units that I wouldn't disclose for the time being. They consist of revolutionnary guard, national guard and an elite guard unit as well as mounted guards (Geandarmi Calari).

Line Infantry, Tirailleurs and Rosiori can be recruited only at 3rd level buildings (or even 4th level), as the Guards can be recruited starting with 4th and 5th level buildings (the national and the elite are available only in Wallachia), as the rev guard will be global.

There are still some left-over units from the vanilla (such as militia, line inf, hussars and jagers). How do I get rid of them?

Thanks a lot.

[husserlTW]

I like the portrait of Athanasios Diakos you've used..

[Sotericus]

I like the portrait of Athanasios Diakos you've used..

Thanks, Husserl, I keep searching for pictures of generals and revolutionary leaders in the Balkans of that time. Would it be possible to create a 'pool' of pictures in the mod, and assign them to specific factions, like Serbia, Greece, Romania and Moldavia? Or this can only be done for all factions?

[husserlTW]

Thanks, Husserl, I keep searching for pictures of generals and revolutionary leaders in the Balkans of that time. Would it be possible to create a 'pool' of pictures in the mod, and assign them to specific factions, like Serbia, Greece, Romania and Moldavia? Or this can only be done for all factions?

I can make it to use a specific pool of portraits, but unfortunately it is culture and not faction specific, meaning that all european factions will use the same pool.

[Sotericus]

We could think about that. This would imply hours of searching pictures with Euro generals both western and eastern. And at some point we might stumble upon a "French" general in Eastern/Balkan outfit, which can be a bit awkward.

However, if the Ottomans are bound to disappear very soon in the game as I suggested before, couldn't we assign the balkan factions to 'eastern' or 'ottoman' culture, or does this mean that other stuff such as weapons, etc. should be assigned according to the same culture? In this case it would be quite painstaking to reorganize everything just to have nice pictures, though ...

Otherwise we could just add a number a pictures to the mod.pack and when a general is about to be spawned we can replace manually his picture editing only 2 lines with ESF (that's what I'm doing this evening for having fun).

Thanks fot your help.

[husserlTW]

However, if the Ottomans are bound to disappear very soon in the game as I suggested before, couldn't we assign the balkan factions to 'eastern' or 'ottoman' culture, or does this mean that other stuff such as weapons, etc. should be assigned according to the same culture? In this case it would be quite painstaking to reorganize everything just to have nice pictures, though ...

Yes if you change culture all change.

[Wallachian]

Great to hear that there are still a few surprise units waiting! Will Moldova have any different troops or will they be the same?

About Serbia, well basically in 1817 it became a principality which was officially recognised in 1822. Basically it had a simillar status with the Ottomans as the Danubian principalities had. My oppinion is that it should be a faction as a protectorate of the Ottomans. And maybe give the Ottomans a few bonuses to offset the loss of the Serbian territory.

About Hungary and Croatia, i believe they were integral part of the Austrian empire, to show them just as protectorates would be a bit inaccurate historically. Is there any way to script a rebellion for them so that they emerge as factions in 1848?

And another interesting revolt i thought about is the Decembrist revolt in Russia in 1825, could be interesting to portray it somehow. It would also weaken Russia a bit so that it doesn't attack Moldova straight away. Also, I don't remember how the map of Napoleon was but is it possible to have Belgium as an emerging faction (Belgium revolution of 1830)?

[Sotericus]

Great to hear that there are still a few surprise units waiting! Will Moldova have any different troops or will they be the same?

About Serbia, well basically in 1817 it became a principality which was officially recognised in 1822. Basically it had a simillar status with the Ottomans as the Danubian principalities had. My oppinion is that it should be a faction as a protectorate of the Ottomans. And maybe give the Ottomans a few bonuses to offset the loss of the Serbian territory.

About Hungary and Croatia, i believe they were integral part of the Austrian empire, to show them just as protectorates would be a bit inaccurate historically. Is there any way to script a rebellion for them so that they emerge as factions in 1848?

And another interesting revolt i thought about is the Decembrist revolt in Russia in 1825, could be interesting to portray it somehow. It would also weaken Russia a bit so that it doesn't attack Moldova straight away. Also, I don't remember how the map of Napoleon was but is it possible to have Belgium as an emerging faction (Belgium revolution of 1830)?

Everything you said can, and - to some extent - should be done, though it may imply some setbacks. I would prefer keeping Hungary on the map anyways.

Serbia will be brought back, but I'm not sure how we'll be able to strengthen the Ottomans. An answer might be to rework the Ottoman's units' status and not only their treasury, since Greece beats the hell out of them everytime (that is when the AI takes a battle and doesn't retreat its troops from the capital before an iminent attack !).

Belgium is already an emergent faction in Vanilla. It gained independence in 1830. For a quite detailed map of Europe after Vienna, take a look at the second post here (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=399343&page=2) - I used it from the very beginnings of this mod. The diplomacy pictures aren't relevant anymore as I messed up startpos several times.

Moldavia and the other factions that we are going to develop will have different rosters. I would try this evening to change the pictures for the messages, too.

I'm not sure whether we can script a rebellion, but the Russians don't attack Moldavia anymore in the 2nd turn (nor in the 3rd or 4th)

Cheers,

PS In an ideal post-nappy the Balkans should have looked like this http://www.terra.es/personal7/jqvaraderey/185915BK.GIF. The region systems in nappy is so disappointing, but at least we have Wallachia as a region.

[Thiky83]

Austria–Hungary Monarchy (from 1915)



Here is some map from old (big) Hungary.
Original map with ethnic areas (German language) from 1880
http://conflicts.rem33.com/images/Un...nic_groups.jpg
Austria–Hungary Monarchy map
http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/...20Hungary).jpg
topographic map
http://dzs-z.hu/images/tura/NagyMagyarorszag_tura.jpg
Austria–Hungary Monarchy in 1867 (all green area was Hungary from the Monarchy)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ia-hungary.png

[Sotericus]

Just a quick note. I finished some of the changes suggested by Wallachian.

1. Gave Croatia to Austria
2. Made Serbia playable and a protectorate of the Ottomans.
3. Turned all the Balkan and CE European nations as well as Spain to 'minor'
4. Changed Ottomans attitude towards Ro and Serbia to 'abysmal' i.e. hostile

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[mircea]

Sotericus you've made an excellent job +rep I look foward to beta test the mod with the new changes

However I prevented the annoying sudden Russian attack on Moldavia which would occur everytime during the 2nd turn.

I don't know how you did it, but you're the man

Note that the picture of Simion Mehedinteanu is in fact a portrait of Athanasios Diakos, a greek revolutionary of the time. I thought of not putting Tudor in charge of the army in order to avoid having him sniped by artillery, but still in charge of state affairs (as he is the Faction leader).

i would suggest to add Ioan Solomon, Tudor's loyal governor of Oltenia, instead or in addition to Simion Mehedinteanu. Maybe we could create a general separated from the faction leader, by slightly modifying his name

Thank you, Wallachian.
I really hope to find a way in making the Ottomans a more challenging faction with only one region and put back Serbia in the game.

I don't know if you are familiar with the excellent Magna Mundi mod for EUR 3. They had a similar problem with several factions that we steamrollered in just a few months. For start, they solved the issue by upgrading fortress' levels in pretty much every province of the game. I think that we could use this, by upping the fortress levels, which sohould enhance survivability of major and minor factions and would avoid the usual blob of color. Further Istanbul should be pretty much inexpugnable, with high fortress levels and a powerful static garrison, while their economy should be buffed up to allow to recruit and maintain a significant army. It is a cruel joke to see Greece or Wallachia manging to take Istanbul, while Russia was unable to do that in a few centuries, and we should try hard to avert the possibility of eliminating Ottomans.

Line Infantry, Tirailleurs and Rosiori can be recruited only at 3rd level buildings (or even 4th level), as the Guards can be recruited starting with 4th and 5th level buildings (the national and the elite are available only in Wallachia), as the rev guard will be global.

There are still some left-over units from the vanilla (such as militia, line inf, hussars and jagers). How do I get rid of them?

Thanks a lot.

The most appealing feature of this mod is the flavor and uniqueness of the period, and of the revolutionary armies involved, and I think that we should try to portrait as accurately as possible these "ragtag, irregular" forces that manged to defeat regular armies, sometimes even in set piece battles. We should try to portrait the problems encountered by the commanders of these forces, and even some of the solutions they found (ambushes, light infantry tactics).

I don't know if I'm right but I think that most players would love unique revolutionary irregular units like Panduri, Potecasi, Plaiesi, Arnauti, Calarasi, Eteria's Scared Battalion, Armatoloi over more common units such as line infantry, lancers, royal guards, recruited later by the former revolutionary countries etc.

And another interesting revolt i thought about is the Decembrist revolt in Russia in 1825, could be interesting to portray it somehow. It would also weaken Russia a bit so that it doesn't attack Moldova straight away. Also, I don't remember how the map of Napoleon was but is it possible to have Belgium as an emerging faction (Belgium revolution of 1830)?

Good ideas Wallachian Unfortunately the game is unsuitable to accurately portrait the changes that happened in this period, the different revolutionary waves, and would force us to have a large number of emergent revolutionary factions which are unplayable. Maybe a solution would be to divide the timeframe of the mod in several sub-campaigns:
E.g. I. 1821 (Greek and Wallachian revolution, Carbonari revolution, Spanish civil war) to 1832 (Polish rebellion, last Carbonari revolt)
II. The 1848 revolutionary wave in Europe
III. War in Balkans (1875-?)
and maybe a prequel with Horea, Closca and Crisan rebellion

Just a quick note. I finished some of the changes suggested by Wallachian.

1. Gave Croatia to Austria
2. Made Serbia playable and a protectorate of the Ottomans.
3. Turned all the Balkan and CE European nations as well as Spain to 'minor'
4. Changed Ottomans attitude towards Ro and Serbia to 'abysmal' i.e. hostile

I oder to ease the burden of Ottoman AI, I think that Serbia should be neutral for a significant period. In fact, as far as I know Serbia remained neutral toward ottomans until 1858-1862

[Sotericus]

Thank you, mircea.

I think your comments are very useful. Indeed, my idea is to 'force' the player to a more defensive stance and to make conquest very difficult. In this respect regular units will be available only later in the game and with huge efforts - it will be actually the crowning of your work after years of guerrilla.

I think the key for a strong Ottoman faction is the unitstats and the following days I'll try to focus on that. It will also be very helpful if I could have an insight on 'spawning' a fort in Instanbul - is it possible, or I am supposed to build one and then hybrid it?

Last, but not least, I try to get rid of the Napoleonic feeling. As a picture speaks more than hours of work in startpos, I will try changing all the in-game message pictures.

Here's a first test

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So goodbye Nappy and welcome to the world of postnapoleonian/Balkan warfare .

[Thiky83]

Gave Croatia to Austria

Did you see the maps? Croatia never owed to Austria! Maximum, if we are thinking in the Monarchy.

[Sotericus]

Inside the Austrian Empire, as in the Ottoman, all the provinces held to some extent a degree of autonomy. That's why I thought individualizing somehow the provinces as protectorates. However, in may 1821, when the game is supposed to begin, Croatia was a kingdom inside the Habsburg Monarchy, due to a personal union dating back to XVIth century. However, I think this individualization that I planned was artificial (as the Kingdom of Croatia was a part of the Austrian Empire) and Wallachian was right in suggesting me to change its status. I would keep though, Hungary as a different faction as at some point we are going to work its units and so on (let's say practical reasons). Nice flags, anyways .

[Sotericus]

It is a cruel joke to see Greece or Wallachia manging to take Istanbul, while Russia was unable to do that in a few centuries, and we should try hard to avert the possibility of eliminating Ottomans.

That's all I could to for the moment. I'll add some money to Ottomans, too. Hope it will work. Otherwise, we'll have to rework their units status, which will be quite a pain. Take a look here.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

And another interesting revolt i thought about is the Decembrist revolt in Russia in 1825, could be interesting to portray it somehow. It would also weaken Russia a bit so that it doesn't attack Moldova straight away. Also, I don't remember how the map of Napoleon was but is it possible to have Belgium as an emerging faction (Belgium revolution of 1830)?

We'll see what we can do about that. Maybe we could spawn rebels, could we Husserl?.

Unfortunately the game is unsuitable to accurately portrait the changes that happened in this period, the different revolutionary waves, and would force us to have a large number of emergent revolutionary factions which are unplayable. Maybe a solution would be to divide the timeframe of the mod in several sub-campaigns:
E.g. I. 1821 (Greek and Wallachian revolution, Carbonari revolution, Spanish civil war) to 1832 (Polish rebellion, last Carbonari revolt)
II. The 1848 revolutionary wave in Europe
III. War in Balkans (1875-?)

I would go for 2 distinct campaigns. One to portray the passage from the post-Vienna world to a proper revolutionary dynamics (the game will be quite slow, a lot of defenses and retreats, etc.). It is an age where energies are accumulated, tensions are aggravated and there are sudden bursts of rebellion. The game should try to represent this as possible.

Then, another campaign that would start in a proper 'revolutionary era' - 1848 (with many factions and revolts), and should try to represent the appeasement made by the counterrevolution and the return to an 'imperial(ist)' logic. This should cover the Crimean war, too. It will be just the beginning of the "Age of Empires".

That's it for now.

Cheers,

S.

[mircea]

That's all I could to for the moment. I'll add some money to Ottomans, too. Hope it will work. Otherwise, we'll have to rework their units status, which will be quite a pain. Take a look here.

Let's hope it works, although an alternative would be to beef up the stats of armed citizenry that emerge during sieges.

We'll see what we can do about that. Maybe we could spawn rebels, could we Husserl?.

It would be nice if we could make this factions playable, especially the Polish and Belgian revolutionaries

I would go for 2 distinct campaigns. One to portray the passage from the post-Vienna world to a proper revolutionary dynamics (the game will be quite slow, a lot of defenses and retreats, etc.). It is an age where energies are accumulated, tensions are aggravated and there are sudden bursts of rebellion. The game should try to represent this as possible.

Then, another campaign that would start in a proper 'revolutionary era' - 1848 (with many factions and revolts), and should try to represent the appeasement made by the counterrevolution and the return to an 'imperial(ist)' logic. This should cover the Crimean war, too. It will be just the beginning of the "Age of Empires".

I think you're right, and it would also reduce the workload It would be nice if we could make a kind of military reform for all revolutionary factions, in order to replace completely the revolutionary type armies with regular ones (like in RTW with Marian reforms).