Menaulatoi Availability

[smitty]

These awesome units aren't available until 1510, which is unfortunate because historically Byzantium was wiped out by this time period. Some quick research showed that these guys had been in use possibly as early as the 10th century ad.

So my question is how/what would I edit to make these pikes available at a much earlier date, say around the 1370 events (not too early so the roster stays balanced). And if I made those changes, would a campaign restart be required? Thanks in advance!

[Gnostiko]

These awesome units aren't available until 1510, which is unfortunate because historically Byzantium was wiped out by this time period. Some quick research showed that these guys had been in use possibly as early as the 10th century ad.

It's something of an easter egg unit. They were originally included in the game, IIRC, but were later removed on account of the fact that the Romans weren't around long enough to develop 'proper' pikemen, but then re-integrated as the consensus is that if the Romans had survived 1453, they would be picking up the military methods being innovated by the other powers. The 'true' Menaulatoi, which you mentioned as preceding the game's start date, aren't the same as the Menaulatoi pikemen we get in-game, they aren't even "proper" pikemen.

So my question is how/what would I edit to make these pikes available at a much earlier date, say around the 1370 events (not too early so the roster stays balanced). And if I made those changes, would a campaign restart be required? Thanks in advance!

Off the top of my head: Pick an event around the date you want, tie it to that in the EDB, and yes, a campaign restart would be needed.

[Fred Putz]

You´ll have to look in the export_descr_buildings in Your StSt_6/data folder for the following entry:

recruit_pool "Menaulatoi" 1 0.5 2 0 requires factions { byzantium, } and event_counter first_watch 1

Then change the last part to Your liking - i don´t know a 1370 event atm - but this is a 1300 one:

recruit_pool "Menaulatoi" 1 0.5 2 0 requires factions { byzantium, } and event_counter new_era_begins 1

but wait - isn´t the first watch event earlier? If that doesn´t work look at the export_descr_units and add those lines:

era 1 byzantium

I just saw that there´s only an entry for era2 - just use the search function in the document and type "menau" - that´s enough

[griffin795]

I had a quick research of menaulatoi, they appeared in 10th Century and there are two point of view of the function of menaulatoi. One said the menaulatoi used a clover shape spearhead or a long-blade spearhead short strong spear, to thrust the stomach of enemy's cataphract horse from below. Another one said the menaulatois worked as greek pikemen, but they had only 3 to 5 men as a group, and commonly not form phalanx. I don't know which one I should believe. I changed attributes of menaulatoi to represent the two functions one by one. The first fuction is similar to billmen. They aren't capable to face the heavy cavalry charge, but have adventage in melee with the cavalry. Then I changed them into the second function- the pikemen. But the attribute long-pike seems to overpowered to cavalry, the latest and heaviest cavalry can't get through it. And the short-pike or spear attribute is completely useless to cavalry charge in SS. So from this conclusion, I can only make a little weaker billmen clone, or a completely pikeman unit. But to the game balance, East Rome needs a pike unit to hold their line, I choose the second function. And they get higher morale ,+1 bonus fighting cavalry and +1 defence because the menaulatois are strong veterans from the army, and they can only be train in imerial barrack with a very low replenish rate until 1510 they can be trained in city barracks. And higher price to train them.

[Gnostiko]

But to the game balance, East Rome needs a pike unit to hold their line

As I said, the Menaulatoi are an ahistorical easter egg unit included purely for the player's sake. Historically, the Roman Empire fell long before the pike and shotte era. If the Romans 'need' a pike unit, the most accurate thing to do would be to increase the number of pike mercenaries available around Constantinople.

[Point Blank]

From memory they are slightly modified as compared to normal pikemen, ie they are more optimised vs infantry and less vs cavalry due to shorter spears etc.

[RollingWave]

one could simply take out the pike formation and make them avalible earlier, I've tested such units (basically two handed spearmens) extensively and they're VERY effective against light infantries and cavalries, while still getting owned by heavy cav, and generally they'll lose to heavy infantries (but can hold against them for suprisingly long durations)

[griffin795]

The most purpose to design the menaulatoi in historical materials is to face the charge of enemy cataphract horses. When cataphract horses charged, the menaulatoi stood the front of other soldiers and trying to kill the cataphract horses from their belly without armor covering. I see few function introduction of other functions. So I prefer to let menaulatoi be capable of stopping and killing charging cavalries at the moment of encountering. They should die as well. I think they shouldn't have any adventage against infantry, for the game balance.

[griffin795]

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffin795
But to the game balance, East Rome needs a pike unit to hold their line

As I said, the Menaulatoi are an ahistorical easter egg unit included purely for the player's sake.
...

Don't forget, pikes are widely used by ancient greeks. And culture of the East Rome containgreek and rome element. If the menaulatoi was not worked as the billmen, the possiblity of they acted as a clone of ancient greek pikes is very big. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menaulion and http://s181.photobucket.com/albums/x...sort=ascending

[Gnostiko]

Don't forget, pikes are widely used by ancient greeks. And culture of the East Rome contains greek and rome element. If the menaulatoi was not worked as the billmen, the possiblity of they acted as a clone of ancient greek pikes is very big.

There is a world of difference between the militaries of ancient Greece, and the Medieval Roman army. For a start, there is little evidence to indicate the Menaulatoi were deployed in block formations, like earlier phalanxes, and later units of pikemen. If anything, they simply acted as a small-scale deterrent for enemy cavalry.
To make it clear again: the Menaulatoi in-game are ahistorical.
If we could go back in time and see Menaulatoi in action, they would look and act very little to how they appear in the game.
Unfortunately, due to engine limitations, we can't accurately depict true, historical Menaulatoi, just as we can't simulate the Roman practice of equpping the front ranks of infantry units with heavier armor.

Also, you musn't forget we are dealing, very specifically, with the Komnenean and Palaiologian armies, and IIRC there is practically no evidence to suggest Menaulatoi survived past Basil II.

By all means, if you want to mod them into your game at an earlier date, or tweak their stats, go ahead, but please don't try to suggest the Romans were running around with pike formations in the time of 1100-1453...because they weren't.

[griffin795]

There is a world of difference between the militaries of ancient Greece, and the Medieval Roman army. For a start, there is little evidence to indicate the Menaulatoi were deployed in block formations, like earlier phalanxes, and later units of pikemen. If anything, they simply acted as a small-scale deterrent for enemy cavalry.

Was there a possibility that menaulatoi worked as split parts of phalanxes? Every group is a single line of a phalanx?
Though there is no records of how the menaulatoi worked, we know what's function of it from some materials. And

To make it clear again: the Menaulatoi in-game are ahistorical.
If we could go back in time and see Menaulatoi in action, they would look and act very little to how they appear in the game.
Unfortunately, due to engine limitations, we can't accurately depict true, historical Menaulatoi, just as we can't simulate the Roman practice of equpping the front ranks of infantry units with heavier armor.

Yes, many units in-game are ahistorical. Some have three type of weapon or more. Some should mount to battle and dismount to fight or shoot. The engine doesn't allow. But why don't we try representing its main function? Just as all the other "ahistorical" units? Menautaloi did exist, since we can't make everything of every units "historical". It shouldn't be designed as an eastern egg. We can't request the unit act as historical in every way in real history, and we can't do that with the game engine. So the rest we can do is to grasp the main function or the spirits of the "historical" ones, right?

Also, you musn't forget we are dealing, very specifically, with the Komnenean and Palaiologian armies, and IIRC there is practically no evidence to suggest Menaulatoi survived past Basil II.

"Nikephoros II Phokas, Byzantine Emperor from 963 to 969", who used menaulatos widely. Timothy Dawson; Angus McBride (2007). Byzantine Infantryman: Eastern Roman Empire c.900-1204 (Volume 118 of Warrior Series). Osprey Publishing. p. 58. ISBN 978-1846031052 written: "with a thick shaft, used by the Byzantine infantry as early as the 10th century AD, against enemy heavy cavalry."
The two references can indicate that it is much possible that ER had menautaloi in 11~12th century. If you have confirmed evidence there was no any menaulatoi type infantry, we should get ride of menaulatoi appears in 1510, replacing it with pikeman. Menaulatoi is time crossing to match to 1510 to be "born".

By all means, if you want to mod them into your game at an earlier date, or tweak their stats, go ahead, but please don't try to suggest the Romans were running around with pike formations in the time of 1100-1453...because they weren't.

I never say they should be in pike formation. I mentioned my modding here is to discuss a better way to represent the historical military functions of menaulatoi. I modded it not as the pike formation at first. But after test, it is completely useless versus much overpowered cavalry in SS. I think out three solution:
a. Weaker pike but buff killing to enemy cavalry at their first charge. b. Designed as another billmen, incapable facing charge, superb in melee versus cavalry c. Loosen their pikemen formation, widen the row space, untested.
I throw the sprat here, waiting for somebody's whale.

[Gnostiko]

Was there a possibility that menaulatoi worked as split parts of phalanxes? Every group is a single line of a phalanx?
Though there is no records of how the menaulatoi worked, we know what's function of it from some materials.

I'm sorry, maybe there's some sort of communication breakdown here: when I say 'phalanx' I'm referring to the ancient Greek infantry formation i.e. a block of men armed with the same equipment fighting in the same style; the Menaulatoi did not operate in blocks, but in lines or clusters.

Yes, many units in-game are ahistorical.

Maybe in vanilla, but in Stainless Steel and Real Combat/Real Recruitment, the historical accuracy is considerably higher, and we're always looking for ways to improve that

Some have three type of weapon or more. Some should mount to battle and dismount to fight or shoot. The engine doesn't allow. But why don't we try representing its main function?

Yes, those are engine limitations, but there are ways we can get around that (where needed) such splitting a unit into mounted/dismounted, for example.

Menautaloi did exist...It shouldn't be designed as an easter egg

Menaulatoi did exist, as you handily quoted...

Nikephoros II Phokas, Byzantine Emperor from 963 to 969", who used menaulatos widely. Timothy Dawson; Angus McBride (2007). Byzantine Infantryman: Eastern Roman Empire c.900-1204 (Volume 118 of Warrior Series). Osprey Publishing. p. 58. ISBN 978-1846031052 written: "with a thick shaft, used by the Byzantine infantry as early as the 10th century AD, against enemy heavy cavalry

Important points there being; Nikephoros Phokas and 963-969.

The two references can indicate that it is much possible that ER had menautaloi in 11~12th century

No, highly unlikely. I suggest you do more reading because you're demonstrating an utter lack of understanding of the Komnenian and Palaiologian armies. It's a phenomenally huge leap in logic to assume a military unit, created almost two hundred years prior, last mentioned almost a hundred years prior, and existing under completely different circumstances is still around. That's assuming you're starting the game in 1100. Any later and concept becomes laughable.

We should get ride of menaulatoi appears in 1510, replacing it with pikeman. Menaulatoi is time crossing to match to 1510 to be "born".

Read the words I am writing down carefully, please. It appears you're looking at what I've typed, but not taking it in.
The Menaulatoi in-game are NOT the real, actual Menaulatoi of the 10th century. It's simply a generic name for Greek pikemen that were originally in the game. They were re-added for a number of reasons, but one being that most people playing as the Roman Empire manage to survive and even prosper past 1453, sometimes even into the era of the pike.
Trust me, the research and the work has been done; the Romans of 1100-1453 did not have menaulatoi or pikemen.
Fin.

If they offend you so much, go into export_units and change their name to 'pseudo-historical-fantasy greek pikemen', because that's all they are

[AnthoniusII]

Confusion is justified.
"I wish i had an Homer to write about me". Alexander the Great when he landed in Troy coast in the begining of his glorius campaign.
He was right.
The same problem exists about the Medieval Roman Armies 468-1453ad.
We have a great paradox here.
We have in one side the most famous medieval state and in the other side the almost total lack of detailed knowlege about it.
There are a lot of factors about this lack of knowlege.
Art is one of them. Detailed millitary chronicles is another.
But the most common factor was the habit of medieval Romans (Byzantines) to change the use of titles and terms for units weapons etc.
Menaulion is one of the most famous examples.
The description of Menaulion in late 6th century to late 8th refaired to a long heavy javelin. When we use the word long for javelins does NOT make it as long as a spear.
Things were a bit more complicated in 10th century.
Then Romans developed two more spears for certain use.
In a millitary manual both spears have the same name "menaulion".
But in Nikephorus Phokas millitary manual they have separated names.
The long spear has the name of "Kontarion Makron" that means exactly long spear and the other is refaired as Menaulion and its spearheads were described as "slavic" or "germanic".
After the death of Basill II in 1025ad we have no indications that infantry formations used the "kontarion makron".
In fact Komnenean era troops started to include in their equipment some west style parts like helmets,swords etc.
The 10th century byz armies were much more advanced from those of 11th to 15th cent ones but what happened is not the subject of the post.

About formations.
Fulcon was a defensive stance simplier than early roman testudo (Roman infuence).
Syntaxis was more than a tight formation (close to shield wall and spearwall) that was a simplier version of greek phalanx.
But not all troops had the same weapons or the same equipment in a formation.
CBUR project did not include Menaulatoi in its roster for historical reasons.
For mod's/game's ballance reasons and under the weal of many fans they re introdused in the mod's roster.

For further details visit CBUR project's forum here and focus on :
1: Komnenean Unit Roster
2: Nikephorean Unit roster (Thematic armies part preview).

Read carefully the Nikephorean units description texts and introduction info one.

If you have more questions we will be huppy to answer them here.

[RollingWave]

griff, you can simply go to your export_descr_building file, find the entries for menaulatoi, look at the whole line and you'll probably see something "and event_counter pike_and_shot" something like that, delete that line, save, and you should be able to recruit it from the start.

[griffin795]

griff, you can simply go to your export_descr_building file, find the entries for menaulatoi, look at the whole line and you'll probably see something "and event_counter pike_and_shot" something like that, delete that line, save, and you should be able to recruit it from the start.

I did it already, but thanks anyway. I made menaulatoi can be trained in imperial barracks with 0.2 replenish rate and 1 unit max. And the time for training them will take 5 turns to represent they are chosen veteran soldiers. Also higher price and morale. Then other city barracks weren't changed. They can have menaulatoi when the event pike and shot happens. And all I need to do is add a line of text.

[Point Blank]

[Gnostiko]

I....think I get what your saying, Gogo...but I don't see the problem; with their hetaireia buildings, mercenaries, and AoR units, the Romans can already do the things you mentioned.

[Gogolometro]

No halebard, no handguns, no templars, no teutonic unit, no janisaries unit. I conquer Italy. I get Bern. I get varagians in Rome and in all italian cities italian mercs. I add alemanoi, and cavalary. I have a surplus of siphonatores and scholarii. You know what? I die miserably. Is the point were to be byzantium is no big deal, because close to Marseille and Genova I face France and Aragon. Thank lord venetians are my vassals and HRE is doomed. Byzantium is crushed by France.
Story is not new, I feel something like this when I played Aragon confident in their religious order, almugavars and late units. France make me to quit campaign. Killing my units like they was peasents.
Like byzantine is worse. France is like lightsabers versus sticks. I am confident about manageable wars versus any eastern force, even mongols. But versus France is a nightmare. Why? Because they dont get a tiny halebard unit. Very usefull. No handguns. None. I must wait a lot for italian arqubusiers. So I trow stack after stack hoping will make their scizors less sharp. And I colect mercenaries. Germans. Like a stock for apocalipse.
Try a custom battle, cream of byzantium versus France. Will understand.

[Gnostiko]

No halebard, no handguns, no templars, no teutonic unit, no janisaries unit. I conquer Italy. I get Bern. I get varagians in Rome and in all italian cities italian mercs. I add alemanoi, and cavalary. I have a surplus of siphonatores and scholarii. You know what? I die miserably. Is the point were to be byzantium is no big deal, because close to Marseille and Genova I face France and Aragon. Thank lord venetians are my vassals and HRE is doomed. Byzantium is crushed by France.
Story is not new, I feel something like this when I played Aragon confident in their religious order, almugavars and late units. France make me to quit campaign. Killing my units like they was peasents.
Like byzantine is worse. France is like lightsabers versus sticks. I am confident about manageable wars versus any eastern force, even mongols. But versus France is a nightmare. Why? Because they dont get a tiny halebard unit. Very usefull. No handguns. None. I must wait a lot for italian arqubusiers. So I trow stack after stack hoping will make their scizors less sharp. And I colect mercenaries. Germans. Like a stock for apocalipse.
Try a custom battle, cream of byzantium versus France. Will understand.

Ah, ok, I get what you're saying. The problem isn't the Roman roster, per se - it's AoR units!

Would you suggest making some changes to late era Byz roster?

Gogolometro is saying there needs to be more late-era AoR units!
I've a few ideas floating around for Early and Late Romans, but nothing on the scale of what Gogolometro is referring to, and it's something that requires the whole shebang; moddlers, skinners....not my forte :-\

[Point Blank]

Ah, ok, I get what you're saying. The problem isn't the Roman roster, per se - it's AoR units!




Gogolometro is saying there needs to be more late-era AoR units!
I've a few ideas floating around for Early and Late Romans, but nothing on the scale of what Gogolometro is referring to, and it's something that requires the whole shebang; moddlers, skinners....not my forte :-\

OK, Bring it on

Smitty: good post thx