The Very First Days

[PointOfViewGun]

I want to know what happened from 29th of November 1947 to 14th of May 1948 in the lands Levant. It's the time between UN partition plan rejection and the end of British forces withdrawal.

Please focus the discussion to this time frame. I'm not asking for you to tell me what happened back then. Anyone with enough knowledge of 1947-1948?

[hellheaven1987]

Peace before the storm.

[PointOfViewGun]

Peace before the storm.

Well, I think we don't know much about what happened during that "peace".

[hellheaven1987]

Well, I think we don't know much about what happened during that "peace".

It was a period of preparation for both sides, as both Arabs and Israeli knew war would break out immediately once British was out. Besides, no one really dare to mess around when British was there.

[PointOfViewGun]

It was a period of preparation for both sides, as both Arabs and Israeli knew war would break out immediately once British was out. Besides, no one really dare to mess around when British was there.

Well, it turns out that Jews started to take over cities according to UN plan as the British retreated. Is it true?

[hellheaven1987]

Either way, I am too tired to type now so go and read these by yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947%E2...tory_Palestine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War

you also have to consider both groups

the local arabs were not all coherently organized, and the vast majority were not too aware of what would happen, they pretty much got screwed

the zionists on the other hand had one purpose and one purpose only and they did anything and everything to achieve their goals..

Well, Soviet was probably going to invade Middle East if Arabs won anyway, under UN's direction. Afterall, Israel already recognized by both Soviet and US at that time...

[Dr. Oza]

you also have to consider both groups

the local arabs were not all coherently organized, and the vast majority were not too aware of what would happen, they pretty much got screwed

the zionists on the other hand had one purpose and one purpose only and they did anything and everything to achieve their goals..

[Dr. Oza]

Well, Soviet was probably going to invade Middle East if Arabs won anyway, under UN's direction. Afterall, Israel already recognized by both Soviet and US at that time...

wasnt it that they were gonna invade if the israelis took more of an advantage of their victory?

[hellheaven1987]

wasnt it that they were gonna invade if the israelis took more of an advantage of their victory?

Ya, what Soviet wanted was a puppet Middle East anyway, so if there was excuse Soviet would love to launch an invasion.

[PointOfViewGun]

What would happen with Soviet Union if Arabs won is outside of the time frame.

[Dr. Oza]

i strongly recommend the book 1913 Jerusalem: The Origins of the Arab-Israeli Conflict

http://www.amazon.com/Jerusalem-1913.../dp/0670038369

it does a good job of setting up the scene leading up to the early zionist movement, the arab reactions, the key players etc..

[PointOfViewGun]

The point of this thread was to figure out who really started this conflict. I used to think that the Arabs started the war with not provocations or reasons and that Jews were forced to defend themselves. I've learned that this was not the case.

[hellheaven1987]

The point of this thread was to figure out who really started this conflict. I used to think that the Arabs started the war with not provocations or reasons and that Jews were forced to defend themselves. I've learned that this was not the case.

Well, Arabs did try to persecute Jewish immigrants back in 30s, despite not much success. In the end, it is undeniable that Arabs were those who officially declared war, so really not much complains they can give...

[PointOfViewGun]

Well, Arabs did try to persecute Jewish immigrants back in 30s, despite not much success. In the end, it is undeniable that Arabs were those who officially declared war, so really not much complains they can give...

Well, Jews being prosecuted in the Arab world doesn't make a difference.

So, you think that if the Arabs did everything the same except making that declaration of war back in 1948, it would be a completely different case?

[hellheaven1987]

So, you think that if the Arabs did everything the same except making that declaration of war back in 1948, it would be a completely different case?

Ya, Middle East would be invaded by Soviet under UN request, game over.

Either way, what I wanted to point out is that in this conflict neither Arabs or Israeli are innocent, so both of them deserved to face any consequence.

[PointOfViewGun]

Ya, Middle East would be invaded by Soviet under UN request, game over.

Either way, what I wanted to point out is that in this conflict neither Arabs or Israeli are innocent, so both of them deserved to face any consequence.

You kinda evaded the question.

They both did but it's hard to say that Jews are facing any consequences.

[Dr. Oza]

Well, I already told you Arabs were those who declared war officially first, so that is why they should share bigger responsibility.

not really true

zionist immigration was allowed at first under the ottomans, but when they realized their long term plans, they tried to stop it.. but many many zionists illegally immigrated and set up illegal settlements... the local indigenous arabs and jews were worried...

like i said

read 1913 the origins of the arab-israeli conflict
editorial reviews based on it

In Ottoman Jerusalem, families of different religions picnicked together at popular shrines and vouched for each other at the bank; Muslims and Jews were business partners and neighbors; and Arab children dressed in costumes for the Jewish holiday of Purim. How then did this city of ethnic diversity become a crucible of sectarian conflict? Marcus (The View from Nebo), a Pulitzer-winning former Wall Street Journal correspondent, focuses on the year 1913 as a turning point, when leaders at the Zionist Congress argued for both cultural and demographic domination of Palestine, while at the same time Jews and Arabs were negotiating a possible peace. Marcus also highlights three men who helped shape the destiny of the future Israeli capital. Albert Antebi was a non-Zionist Syrian Jew who advocated for Jewish economic solvency and strong relationships with Muslims; ardent Zionist Arthur Ruppin directed the establishment of Jewish settlements; and Ruhi Khalidi, a prominent Muslim , although not an Arab nationalist, actively opposed Jewish immigration and land purchases. Marcus masterfully brings a Jerusalem of almost a century ago to pungent life, and her political dissection of the era is lucid and well-meaning although she never explains the gulf between moderate Muslims of 1913 and today's Islamist and radical movements. (Apr. 23)

Searching for the origins of the Arab-Israeli conflict, veteran Middle East correspondent Marcus highlights 1913 as a year when neighborly relations in Jerusalem took a serious turn for the worse. That was the year of the eleventh Zionist congress in Vienna, at which strategies for purchasing land in Palestine transformed into a massive international fund-raising effort and a muscular Jewish nationalism; it was the year Ottoman parliamentarian Ruhi Khalidi wrote Zionism or the Zionist Question, which anticipated nationalistic strife and urged Arabs to hold onto their land. That was also the year a dispute over stolen grapes descended into armed conflict in Rehovot, a Jewish settlement near Jaffa. Although touted as a challenge to the conventional historical narrative of the conflict, which tends to focus on the British Mandate of 1920-48, Marcus' book is ultimately more concerned with bringing to life Khalidi and other key personalities and reminding us that there was a time in this century when shared traditions and communal space trumped ideological partisanship in Jerusalem. Both tasks are done with the same perceptive analysis and graceful prose that won her a Pulitzer in 2005 for her reportage on cancer survivors. Brendan Driscoll

zionists came with a concentrated effort to politically, socially and culturally dominate the area... they started the war from the virtue of being zionists

in the 30s, Irgun , and many other zionist groups actively attacked palestinian villages to drive the people away..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ring_the_1930s

[Dr. Oza]

Israeli declared independence

based on lands that werent theirs..

thats the problem