Cavalry of Syracuse and Taras

[FliegerAD]

As promissed, I wrote some info about the Cavalry:

The Cavalry of the Greek motherland was rather weak compared to it’s colonies in South Italy, the so called Magna Graecia.
While the Ίππε̃ις of Sparta were on foot, the Spartan colony Taras could muster 4000 horsemen (cf. Strab.VI 3,4). Although only few is known about their equipment, there are some coins showing a quite heavy armor.

http://img486.imageshack.us/img486/2559/tarent8oo.jpg

These are from Kraay: Greek Coins (Pl.108, 312f). Further examples are listed in Arnaldo (ed.): A catalogue of the Greek Coins in the British Museum. Italy, p.185, nr.187-198; p.197, nr.274-277; p.201, nr.306.
We see the muscle couirass with πτέγυρες (‘armored flaps’?), the shield, which seems to smaller than an Argive shield, but it is important to note the two attached spears. The right hand is not good to see, maybe it held a spear to, as many other horsemen of Tarantine coinage do. The helmet is crested and was identified as Attic (cf. Kraay, p.315).

Though all numismatic evidence for Syracuse’s cavalry is from Hellenistic age (Agathokles and Hieron II.), there is other evidence. The most important is from Diodor, who tells us that Dionysios the Tyrant of Syracuse ordered to furnish the infantry officiers and the cavalry with 14.000 (!) breastplates of exceptional beauty and craftmen’s art (cf. Diod. XIV 43,2f).
The Syracusian Cavalry was superior in every aspect to the cavaly mustered by Athens. The comparision in Thukydides (Thuk. VI 20,4; 22,1) reveals this as much as the combat records (cf. Thuk. VI 71,2; 88,6; 101,5; VII 4,6; 6,3; 11,2-4; 78,6; 81,2; 84,2). They even managed to defeat Hoplites (cf. Thuk. VI 70,3), that happened very seldom in the classic era.
The wast superiority is noteworthy as the Athenians did have aquired a good cavalry force themselves this time (cf. Spence: Cavalry of Classical Greece, deals with Athenian cavalry almost exclusively).

The tactics used by the Syracusian riders correspond with the equipment shown by Tarantine mintage. The harrass and skirmish with their spears, seldom going for close combat, only when the enemy is disordered.

Archaeology again is helpful in order to clarify the armor. Since the ‘classic’ muscle cuirass is rather bad for riding due to it’s weight, size and inflexibilty, a better muscle cuirass was developed. It bends outwards over the hips, consequently does not hamper the mobility of the rider. Moreover it is lighter than most of the muscle cuirasses of the Greek motherland (cf. Franz: Unteruchungen zu den Hopliten…, p.118).

http://www.freewebtown.com/italica/i...or/musc10b.jpg

The helmets for cavalry should be open faced in order to cope the complex cavalry maneuvers (cf. Xen.Equ. XII 3). Since we have found many Chalcidian Helmets in Magna Greacia, which fits to Xenophons demand, we can assume that this was the helmet used (cf. Snodgrass: Arms and Armor of the Greeks, p.140).
There is absolutly no evidence for shields used by the Syracusian cavalry, but this does not neccessarly means an absence of shields because comparable cavalry did use them. On the other hand, other comparable cavalry did not…

More than noteworthy is the armor of the horses. Since the 6th cent. BC the Greeks in Italy did possess horse armor in form of προμετωπίδια (frontleds ?) and προστερνίδια (breastplates).
These were made of a single bronze plate, unlike later hellenistic horse armor, which was developed under Iranian influence. The Gorgonaion is a very common blazon, while the frontleds probably were decored with feathers like the Italic knights did.

http://img486.imageshack.us/img486/2...armour21gk.jpg

The Greeks in south Italy were the only Greeks, who had used horse armor. A few exemples were found in Olympia and one in Athens, but they originated from Italy for sure (cf. Kunze: 8. Bericht über die Ausgrabungen in Olympia, p.188).

Campanian and Lucanian knights’ horses had very similar equipment, but sometimes the προστερνίδια were only made of linen (cf. Steingräber: Grabmalereien in Unteritalien, Abb.27).

[apostate]

that kind of specialised info are highly appreciated when they come from people with such good and studied knowledge.....thanks for the help

does it make sense to have a good cavalry for lokroi (of italy) and kroton?


-how big should the spear be?i assume much shorter than the hellenistic spears of the shock cavalry...i d say that its better to give them short spears to throw and big kopis sword to fight with

-also how would u suggest the lighter cavalry version (if any) of syracusians and tarantines to look like and fight?

[FliegerAD]

I am always happy, if I can help. Unfortunatly in General the cavalry of classical Greece is rather obscure due to the fact, that ancient authors stressed the role of the Hoplites.

-how big should the spear be?i assume much shorter than the hellenistic spears of the shock cavalry...i d say that its better to give them short spears to throw and big kopis sword to fight with

The Greek cavalry armament was not standardised at all. Reading the sources we usually see pole arms of various size. The biggest was the κάμαξ, a thrusting spear, which could be thrown as well. Xenophon had very bad experiences with that weapon. On one occasion these spears of the Greek horsemen were not able to penetrate the armor of their Persian enemies, the spears simply broke (cf. Xen.Hell.III 4,13). But obviously it was a very common weapon among the cavalry of the motherland. Otherwise Xenophon would not have had a need to recommend smaller spears capable of throwing as well as thrusting in close combat (cf. Xen.Equ.XII 12).
On the other hand javelins were very popular among the Greeks in Magna Grecia, but also elsewhere on a smaller scale. Thukydides usually reports skirmishing cavalry.
Regarding the tactical role of the Greek cavalry in General (very good outlined by Xenophon in his work about the Cavalry Commander), it is save to say, that spears of various size were used for different situations. Remember there was no standardisation at all concerning the size.
Best solution is to give the Greek cavalry a longer, thicker spear for close combat and slightly thinner spears for throwing.

Some riders may have worn a curved sabre, but it was a very subordinated weapon for the cavalry until Philipp II., when he introduced shock troops, who usually had to fight in close combat. In such a situation a long lance, like the Companions had, is not very good, that’s why they desperatly needed a sabre.
But the Greek cavalry rather used a multifunction spear. Since we have only two weapons, I think the kopis should not be a weapon. Maybe for bodyguards… But as I said, it was not as important as the spears.

-also how would u suggest the lighter cavalry version (if any) of syracusians and tarantines to look like and fight?

There was no strict and straight distinction between heavy and light cavalry as the later Hellenistic armies had. The lighter armored fought together with the more heavily armored. There was no great difference concerning the offensive weapons, the lighter troops had simply less armor.

does it make sense to have a good cavalry for lokroi (of italy) and kroton?

Maybe apart from a few numbers, which are more than doubtworthy, we have no sources concerning the cavalry of Kroton and Lokroi (as far as I know). As the mounted troops of the sourrounding Greeks and Italics were very good, I think there is no reason to assume, that it was all to different, regarding the massive interdependence of their military systems especially concerning cavalry (cf. Alföldy: Herrschaft der Reiterei, p.28-37).
Since they had many wars too, their cavalry had a lot opportunities to gain glory like the Syracusian or later Campanian horsemen, but they did not gain any notable glory.
It might be a good solution, to make them inferior to the Syracusian and Tarantine troops, but superior to other Greeks.

Only my little oppinions.

[apostate]

IMO its quite unsafe to present anything that xenophon suggests for the greek cavalry
besides thats its just out of the mods timeframe,the cavalry of the myrioi is not a pro corp designed to fight mounted
the "myrioi" were hired by kyros so that he has heavy infantry and they did well their job....however he didnt need the greeks for cavalry

when the myrioi were moving back they formed a cavalry using mainly horses they used for transport and for riders they used men who knew little riding or maybe who also havent rided horse before

xenophon himself is uncomfortable with his breast on the horse and he always suggests that to follow how the eastern cavalry operates
its not a surprise they have problem with kamax since that cavalry is formed out of necessity and they were not supposed to fight that way at first
also its not a surprise that some of xenophons suggestions were never used for greeks

as for the kamax itself i think that is a weapon shorter than the hoplite spear and also used overhand and of course smaller than hellenistic cavalry spear
i ve seen pictures from findings that show more than one kamakes of a size that i think it doesnt make impossible to throw it from a close distance as well as impaleenemy without throwing
its certainly smaller and lighter than the hellenistic cavalry spear
its true though that the kamax is prone to break if it fails to penetrate the enemies armour because its not a heavy weapon

the persian "palta" are smaller but i think that they dont apply to the way a greek is used to fight and to the greek warfare and landscape
i think xenophon is wrong suggesting that the greeks should form a hybrid cavalry using persian elements because that use doesnt apply to the needs of greek army and the role of greek cavalry in a warfare which is based in hoplites
the best for the greeks is to carry a kamax along with a couple of javelins

well the kind of wood persians used for their short spears was better and more unlikely to break of course and more specialized but i doubt if its better able to penetrate a greek armour or hoplon shield than the kamax which has a peak special for penetration
however he is right about the kind of helmet he suggests (well thats common logic) and such boiotian style helmets will be present in the game as well as semi open helmets (like those u suggest)



about kopis sword: the light greek cavalry of south hellenic mainland is made as very simple use
it has a short spear to mele and another to throw

for thessalians and macs we have used both short spear as mele and kopis too for the fm bodyguards in Macedonians and mixed for the thessalians (basically the thessalian faction is WIP currently)

also for theban cavalry which is already done i suggested to have a kopis and short spears to throw since its reported to directly engage hoplites in Plataia and slaughtered them
i seriously doubt if it was able to do so without a heavy weapon like a kopis which is the only way to give cavalry an advantage while fighting infantry (given that there is not in use heavy hellenistic type spear)
on the other hand the unit named boiotian cavalry uses the same weapons as the light greek cavalry just it has superior ability

for me its pretty sure that the kopis sword is used for cavalry before the Macedonian cavalry starts using the heavy xyston spear and operate as shock weapon
also maybe the cavalry that jason of pherai used could also have in use the kopis simple because that formation supposes that the cavalry has now more operational roles than before
furthermore the kopis is not at all suitable for long time "swordplay"......its too heavy and inconvient for that use
its more useful to use in time of necessity against other cavalry or infantry but it doesnt provide that much superioty to the shock cavalry if the results of the initial charge isnt the ideal

on the other hand its the only kind of sword that is used in hellenic world that can be useful for a horseman (because the others are either small or thin/suitable only for impale without any thrashing use

i think that before adopted from phillipos it was also in use from thessalians,thebans even maybe from some other greeks

i think we really need the kopis for adding some variety and flavor as well
it will just make the game more interesting without making it unrealistic at all
besides ALL hellenic cavalry units (greek,thessalian,macedonian,italian greek) will have skirmish ability

There was no strict and straight distinction between heavy and light cavalry as the later Hellenistic armies had. The lighter armored fought together with the more heavily armored. There was no great difference concerning the offensive weapons, the lighter troops had simply less armor.

Since they had many wars too, their cavalry had a lot opportunities to gain glory like the Syracusian or later Campanian horsemen, but they did not gain any notable glory.

i think the same too.....

btw sybaris is also said to have a strong cavalry
actually the crotonians are supposed to have beaten them after making a trick to confuse the enemies horses which disordered the whole army
however its not recorded that they used cavalry vs cavalry and that may suggest that they didnt possess the numbers nor the quality to face the sybaritai horsemen

anyway we dont have sybaris as a playable faction though so it doesnt need to worry about making a special horse unit for them....

--------------

here are what i plan in specific
tell me how they sound

tarantine cavalry: (given that the fm bodyguards we want them still to beon feet as planned)
-helmet semi open of attic or chalkidice style with plume (similar to what u see in ionian fm bodyguards)
-metal armour
-medium shield (the square one is ok for me since it makes sense to be insipered by illyrian style tribes of calabria)
-cape
-short spears as missiles and spear
-some horse armour parts as shown in picture (or none)

syracuse cavalry:
-not metal armour but a spolas cloth (something between tunic and lino)
-boiotian style helmet or other open one
-short spear as missiles and spear

syracuse fm bodyguards: (mounted of course-same model as tarantine cav)
-helmet similar to what ionian fm bodyguards wears
-metal breasts
-cape
-short spear as missile and kopis sword
-some horse armour as shown in picture



.....PLUS a lighter version of cavalry (different model than greek hippeis) for all greeks of Italy including Lokroi and Kroton and Sicily (their only cavalry unit)
-pylos helmet
-javs and short spear
-cape
-no armour

[apostate]

Since we have only two weapons, I think the kopis should not be a weapon. Maybe for bodyguards… But as I said, it was not as important as the spears

in case my english dont make good sense (which is more than likely to occur) my point is that since we can have a short spear (not jav) as a missile why not to make a kopis as second weapon for certain superior cavalry units than the fm bodyguards.....that way we show have the spear (as missile) and kopis as well

btw in Italy kopis is used widely both by greeks and by non greeks....for infantry at least

[FliegerAD]

Xenophon did a lot more than just leading his men home after Kunaxa...
Thukydides did never finish his history about the Peloponnesian War, that is what Xenophon did with his Hellenica.
The passage I cited (Xen.Hell. III 4,13), in which the spears broke, happened 396 BC. The Greek horsemen were a Boeotian force fighting together with Agesilaus against a renewed Persian thread, so they were among the best horsemen Greece could muster.

I did not suggest to follow his recommendations in “The Art of Horsemenship”, but it is a very good source to see, what the Greeks did wrong with cavalry – from Xenophon’s point of view. Consequently it is a good source for Greek cavalry, although we don’t have to agree with his recommendations.

also for theban cavalry which is already done i suggested to have a kopis and short spears to throw since its reported to directly engage hoplites in Plataia and slaughtered them also for theban cavalry which is already done i suggested to have a kopis and short spears to throw since its reported to directly engage hoplites in Plataia and slaughtered them.
i seriously doubt if it was able to do so without a heavy weapon like a kopis which is the only way to give cavalry an advantage while fighting infantry

You have to regard the situation. Herodot reports that they were brave, but quite easily routed by the Athenians, when they had to face a phalanx in good order (cf. Hdt. IX 67).
But the Megarians and Philasians were in haste, cought by surprise and in disorder (cf. Hdt. IX 69,2), therefore they were defeated.
Every infantry force in disorder is a rather easy prey for cavalry, no matter how they are armed. Hannibal’s Numidians have proven this more than once.

The Kopis did provide the neccessary ability to fight in close quarters, since the Macedonians could hardly use their long lances after the initial charge because the lance was to long and heavy. Consequently a sword was neccessary.
The classical Greeks meanwhile rather used pole arms of various size, which could be used in many situations, in opposite to Sarissa, Xyston and the later Kontos.

I never said, nobody did use that sword, some certainly did. You said it already, it was the only Greek sword suitable for equestrian use.

i think we really need the kopis for adding some variety and flavor as well
it will just make the game more interesting without making it unrealistic at all
besides ALL hellenic cavalry units (greek,thessalian,macedonian,italian greek) will have skirmish ability

in case my english dont make good sense (which is more than likely to occur) my point is that since we can have a short spear (not jav) as a missile why not to make a kopis as second weapon for certain superior cavalry units than the fm bodyguards.....that way we show have the spear (as missile) and kopis as well

I absolutly agree! Just don’t create to many kopis-armed horsemen and everything is ok, from my point of view.

the best for the greeks is to carry a kamax along with a couple of javelins

Exactly.

here are what i plan in specific
tell me how they sound

In General it sounds very good, I have only a few doubts:

Tarantine Cavalry:
I would prefer a round shield, because it is the only one documented by the sources (coins). Just don’t make it too big.
I would not add horse armor. Most of the evidence for horse armor (depictions and founds) is located at other places. Giving them frontleds is good.

Syracusian Cavalry:
You must give them muscle cuirasses. Although the number of 14.000 might be exaggerated, the proportion of cavalry equipment and infantry equipment is correct. We have to assume that a very big part of the Syracusian horsemen, if not all, were equipped with muscle cuirasses.
I am not sure about the helmet. I would prefer a Chalcidian or Attic type, because almost every depiction of horsemen in south italy shows these types and we have founds masses of them there.
Their horses should have frontleds, too.

Syracusian fm bodyguards:
Led them be the only ones with frontleds and breastplates for the horses, we do not have that much evidence for horse-breastplates. We should reserve them for very rare units.

Light cavalry:
Not sure about the pilos helmet. Yes, some depictions show them, but looking at the Parthenon-Frieze, I would prefer some thick felt caps (Thracian caps).

The spolas:
It is not unreasonable to equip some cavalry units with this piece of armor, but the Tarantine and even more the Syracusian horsemen should have metal breastplates.
If there is the possibility to create some spolas-armed horsemen as addition… why not?

[FliegerAD]

Actually I see no reason, to make Gela's cavalry as strong or even stronger than Syracuse's cavalry. The latter's performance is simply to impressive, while there is almost nothing about Gela's horsemen.

Don't get me wrong, they should have a capable mounted force, but not that strong, I think.

just my 2 Eurocent... what do you think?

[apostate]

i think the best is to make a medium cavalry (we already have one with spolas,simple semi-open helmet,small shield and short spears as missile/mele weapon) available to the whole italy and sicily provinces and just for syracuse,taras and campanians/lucanians have an even better version as described in that thread....

[FliegerAD]

sounds reasonable.

[Kleomenis]

that was extremely interesting to read. thanks for the knowledge u offered us.

[christof139]

Yes good info. and informative. It also brings to light all the unknowns that still exist, and therefore all the possibilities that could be the answer to those unknowns, which makes it hard to determine how to equip cavalry from certain states which leads to the ability to be able to use slightly different equipment for cavalry from different states which in turn will add more variety and flavor to the units in the game and etc.

I would make Syracusan Cav. slightly better than all other Sicilian Cav., I wold make Campanian, Lucanian, and perhaps Apulian cav. equal to each other and just a slight bit less better than Syracusan Cav.. Roman Equites were good and the equal of most other Cav. but there weren't many of them. All other Greek and Italian Cav. except for certain instances I would make less better than Syracusan, Campanian, Lucanian, Apulian, and Roman Equite Cav. By better I mean with a little more morale/defensive skill/attack skill/charge values and don't mean armor type and weaponry.

Armor and weaponry types are being discussed here with great knowledge and there are pros and cons based on historical evidence and conjecture that all make sense, so this point seems to be the main point of decision.

Ha ha ha!!! Have fun deciding, because not everyone will agree or disagree with the decisions made, but those final decisions when made will be adequate and based on historical info. and conjecture, and people can modify things to their own peculiar tastes after the mod is released. I'll be happy with any decisions made, except for Italic-Greek Cav. with rectangular shields, and it seems Italian Cav. that may have used rectangular shileds are from an earlier time period which name of that time period I can't remember off the top of my head right now, oh yeah, Villanovan period maybe. Perhaps some southern Italian tribes that originally migrated from Illyria might have continued to use Illyrian shileds of a rectangular type as seems tp be the case in some instances, but whether every Cav. warrior did is not known, and round shields were also used by these same people. Heck, make the Lucanian etc. Italian units with both shield types. that would be great if possible.

The only Heavy and/or Medium Cav. I would have would be Italo-Greek, Italian, and Syarcusan bodyguard units, the few Roman Equites and corresponding Italian types, a good amount of Syracusan Cav. and some other Sicilian Cav. such as Bodyguard and Equite type units, and all the other Italian, Italo-Greek, and Magna Grecia cav. would be Light cav., with or without shields depending on sources and the states they belonged to, but all the Cav. would have the ability to skirmish with at least 2 or 3 javelins as you have stated. Hard determining what other weapons the Cav. carried for sure.

Great topic and discussion here, and I enjoyed reading it and learned more in the process. Interesting points brought up.

Chris