Historical Issues in Modern Armenian-Turkish relations

[Armenum]

This thread is as a result a discussion that branched out of another thread....

I believe they did and it was rejected. It was talked on Teke Tek Özel when Sevan Nişanyan was the guest and he acknowledged that such a program could not take place in Armenia.

wait so Sevan said that such a program couldn't take place? First of all who is Sevan and what are his credentials? Second of all has an opendebate regarding the 1915 events ever taken place in Turkish media? And lastly, has there even been an attempt for a Turkish side to go to Armenian television and talk about the "Turkish" side of events.

So you're saying that the hotel personnel killed the girl?

Armenian probably sounds more like Russian to Turks. It's really hard for a random Turk to differentiate between Armenian, Russian, Georgian or other similar languages. There is a much higher probability that it had nothing to do with ethnicity. Though I wonder what would happen to a Turk if he were to speak Turkish in a public place...

No, no, some random people killed the girl, not hotel personnel. There's been incidents with hotels though where Armenian tourists have been harassed, especially at lower class hotels.

Your uncle want to a restaurant and they only ordered water. Wow, that's a really tight story.

The water they ordered they charged them 1000 dollars. I don't know what else they ordered but I know for a fact that they charged 1000 dollars for the water.

The constitutional court addressed three articles and one of them was the article 11. The article was used in a legal argument as a condition that the protocols had to meet. This is clear enough.

source? Armenia was ready to go through the normalisation with no preconditions, this was clear from the beginning when the protocols were signed. The Turkish reason for stalling the protocols was that they wanted a more "comprehensive" deal which would include Karabakh, or just another reason for satisfying Azerbaijan who was angry over the deal. If such a precondition had been set against Turkey and thus prevented them from going through the mediators would have noted Armenia for it. Instead they noted Turkey for putting the Karabakh preconditions.

Yeah, it means that they're not your lands any more. It's completely retarded to think that they are and to form an argument around this. Those lands are politically and historically Turkish but only historically Armenian as well.

I wouldn't equate Turkish and Armenian history of those lands. Those lands for a much longer time have been historically Armenian, and after the 1915 events, when there were little to no Armenians left, the people who the lands was left to was the Kurds who till this day are a majority there. The Armenian history of those lands has to be preserved by the Turkish state, not only physically but also in literature.

[Dr. Oza]

No, no, some random people killed the girl, not hotel personnel. There's been incidents with hotels though where Armenian tourists have been harassed, especially at lower class hotels.

dont even get me started with the hundreds of turks armenian terrorists have killed

The water they ordered they charged them 1000 dollars. I don't know what else they ordered but I know for a fact that they charged 1000 dollars for the water.

then he shud go somewhr to eat where the owners are not stupid s

my neighbors are armenian and they go to istanbul every year and they live there in the summer .. and they manage to buy 0.5 lira water

source? Armenia was ready to go through the normalisation with no preconditions, this was clear from the beginning when the protocols were signed. The Turkish reason for stalling the protocols was that they wanted a more "comprehensive" deal which would include Karabakh, or just another reason for satisfying Azerbaijan who was angry over the deal. If such a precondition had been set against Turkey and thus prevented them from going through the mediators would have noted Armenia for it. Instead they noted Turkey for putting the Karabakh preconditions.

tough , turkey has all of the cards, so they can demand preconditions, if the armenians dont want to play ball, lovely... there is nothing they can do...

armenia has nothing to bring to the negotiation table

I wouldn't equate Turkish and Armenian history of those lands. Those lands for a much longer time have been historically Armenian, and after the 1915 events, when there were little to no Armenians left, the people who the lands was left to was the Kurds who till this day are a majority there. The Armenian history of those lands has to be preserved by the Turkish state, not only physically but also in literature.

first of all, so what?

i dont care that armenians have been there for a while.. they havent been the majority for millennia and havent had a state there for thousands of years either (cilicia does not count, it was a short lived crusader puppet and not even on the lands in question)

suck it up .. basically .. u dont see welsh people complaining about how celts used to own france or northern italy

thats kinda hard when we had to fight a war against armenians in the 20s to make sure that land was ours... and no it is not turkey's duty to protect armenian culture...

and it was not "LEFT" to the kurds, they just live there and most identify as loyal turkish citizens anyway

and does the armenian government preserve and promote the culture of the turkish yerevan khans ? or the black sheeps ?

[Armenum]

dont even get me started with the hundreds of turks armenian terrorists have killed

So we're going to go into a "who killed more" argument? I deeply despise the ASLA and the actions they did, as do most right minded Armenians. They were a small group of ultra-nationalistic, western Armenians whose relatives had fled the killings, and were misguided in doing those things, and in no way do they represent Republic of Armenia or Eastern Armenians.

armenia has nothing to bring to the negotiation table

Actually it does. First of all Turkey won't get into the EU without open borders and normalised relations, especially given the fact that the blockade is internationally illegal. Second of all, trade with Armenia will great help the improvised Eastern region of Turkey, and this is evident by the support that many people in Eastern Turkey have for open borders, like farmers, business owners, city politicians, etc.

i dont care that armenians have been there for a while.. they havent been the majority for millennia and havent had a state there for thousands of years either (cilicia does not count, it was a short lived crusader puppet and not even on the lands in question)

First of all you're greatly underestimating the kingdom of Cilicia. This was the golden age for Armenian culture, nobility, language etc. We had powerful allies and powerful cultural contacts. The kingdom lasted for 176 years, so it's not really short lived either.

Second of all, the region has been populated with Armenians ever since Armenians existed. All Western Armenians who now live in diaspora are from those lands or have their relatives who were from there, and there are a lot of them around the world. You still see the remnants of the Armenian presence through the numerous churches and other cultural sites. Kars was a rich, historic Armenian town.

and does the armenian government preserve and promote the culture of the turkish yerevan khans ? or the black sheeps ?

You're really going to compare an ancestral homeland of a people to a small village existed with a portion of khans?

But you said that the person would require to give her passport to hotel personnel so how would a random person know she's an Armenian based on her giving her passport to hotel personnel? He wouldn't. There is very small chance that her ethnicity would be found out by others.
Also the girl is supposed to be with her friend but somehow the reports don't talk about the friend at all. Somehow a mom goes into Turkey and finds a corpse that she identifies 90% as her. It sounds so sketchy.
Anyways, there are thousand of Armenians living in Turkey and thousands more come to Turkey for holidays and you can find only a single serious incident. The rest of harassments as you mention are likely to be nothing more than someone would get if he was in a football match.

I'm not saying that all Armenians are attacked, but I can concur that more violence comes about against Armenians than other foreigners.

Sorry but it sounds so sketchy again. First of all, in many restaurants in Turkey you don't really get any invoice showing what is paid for what. Places that do that wouldn't treat them in such a way as they have a reputation to protect. No one goes in to restaurant and just orders water. It sounds more like they got drunk and then try to cover it up with a story. I hear stories like this a lot from Turks too and know for real that they're not true.

They didn't only water, they ordered other things, but the cost of the water was 1000. The owner of the restaurant came and said you have to pay 1000 (when they were finished with everything) or else he would call the police. Though I can't comment if it was a respectable restaurant or not, most likely it wasn't.

Armenian could have been there 2 or 3 or 4 times more than Turks but it doesn't make those lands less for Turks who have been living there for centuries. Majority of the lands you're referring to are hardly Kurdish majority. The fact is the lands are not Armenian. It haven't been for more than 5 centuries and nothings changing that.

Why can't longevity of stay make those lands more Armenian? It's only logical that it would. I'm not denying that Turks, Kurds have lived there but today's political situation can't override a whole history.

There: Link. Search for 11 and you'll find the part where the court says that the protocols cannot be applied or interpreted with contradiction to paragraph 11 of Deceleration of Independence of Armenia. This was basically a limitation on the protocols which went completely against the nature of the protocols in the first place.

Turks didn't want a comprehensive deal covering Karabakh. The protocols were signed and they were sent to assemblies except Armenia sent it to court first. It became a problem after the decision. Azerbaijan was angry at first but weeks after the signing they came to Ankara and they were calmed. No mentioning of Karabakh was made during those meetings. Turkey simply assure them that they're still have interest in favour of Azerbaijan. Karabakh was only put as a factor after the decision of constitutional court of Armenia. It wasn't even put as a precondition legally. It was simply voiced by certain members of the parliament as a factor and that was it.

There were no official mediators or parties to the protocols so I still don't care what Americans or Russians think about the process. Even then it would be expected that they would turn a blind eye to what Armenia did.

The Karabakh preconditions began to crop up before the constitutional decision, and besides there was a lot of pressure against Turkish politicians for doing it as many didn't want to ruin relations with Azerbaijan.

What that clause is basically saying is that the normalisation of the relations won't stop Armenia supporting international genocide recognition. That is not a precondition, that's simply saying that Armenia will continue with the effort which it has always done since independence. This is not putting any requirement on Turkey, it's simply a small phrase which is saying that the status quo will be kept.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Here's also an interesting article regarding all this,

http://www.cacianalyst.org/?q=node/5258

[PointOfViewGun]

wait so Sevan said that such a program couldn't take place? First of all who is Sevan and what are his credentials? Second of all has an opendebate regarding the 1915 events ever taken place in Turkish media? And lastly, has there even been an attempt for a Turkish side to go to Armenian television and talk about the "Turkish" side of events.

He is an Armenian author, linguist, faculty member and a hotel owner from Turkey. He had relatives who he lost back then.

During the program, Fatih Altaylı asked him if such a program could be done on an Armenian TV channel. Sevan kinda paused for a while then said, no. He then said that if such a program could happen 10 years ago in Turkey and Altaylı responded saying that he himself had a similar program 10 years ago on the same program an Armenian historian or an Armenian individual(can't remember which) discussing the Armenian issue.

I don't think in a state where even a book by the founder of Armenia is burned by the state because they have things undermining the genocide claims, would let any such program happen. Plus, it wasn't Sevan that requested for such a program but the channel itself.

No, no, some random people killed the girl, not hotel personnel. There's been incidents with hotels though where Armenian tourists have been harassed, especially at lower class hotels.

But you said that the person would require to give her passport to hotel personnel so how would a random person know she's an Armenian based on her giving her passport to hotel personnel? He wouldn't. There is very small chance that her ethnicity would be found out by others.

Also the girl is supposed to be with her friend but somehow the reports don't talk about the friend at all. Somehow a mom goes into Turkey and finds a corpse that she identifies 90% as her. It sounds so sketchy.

Anyways, there are thousand of Armenians living in Turkey and thousands more come to Turkey for holidays and you can find only a single serious incident. The rest of harassments as you mention are likely to be nothing more than someone would get if he was in a football match.

The water they ordered they charged them 1000 dollars. I don't know what else they ordered but I know for a fact that they charged 1000 dollars for the water.

Sorry but it sounds so sketchy again. First of all, in many restaurants in Turkey you don't really get any invoice showing what is paid for what. Places that do that wouldn't treat them in such a way as they have a reputation to protect. No one goes in to restaurant and just orders water. It sounds more like they got drunk and then try to cover it up with a story. I hear stories like this a lot from Turks too and know for real that they're not true.

source? Armenia was ready to go through the normalisation with no preconditions, this was clear from the beginning when the protocols were signed. The Turkish reason for stalling the protocols was that they wanted a more "comprehensive" deal which would include Karabakh, or just another reason for satisfying Azerbaijan who was angry over the deal. If such a precondition had been set against Turkey and thus prevented them from going through the mediators would have noted Armenia for it. Instead they noted Turkey for putting the Karabakh preconditions.

There: Link. Search for 11 and you'll find the part where the court says that the protocols cannot be applied or interpreted with contradiction to paragraph 11 of Deceleration of Independence of Armenia. This was basically a limitation on the protocols which went completely against the nature of the protocols in the first place.

Turks didn't want a comprehensive deal covering Karabakh. The protocols were signed and they were sent to assemblies except Armenia sent it to court first. It became a problem after the decision. Azerbaijan was angry at first but weeks after the signing they came to Ankara and they were calmed. No mentioning of Karabakh was made during those meetings. Turkey simply assure them that they're still have interest in favour of Azerbaijan. Karabakh was only put as a factor after the decision of constitutional court of Armenia. It wasn't even put as a precondition legally. It was simply voiced by certain members of the parliament as a factor and that was it.

There were no official mediators or parties to the protocols so I still don't care what Americans or Russians think about the process. Even then it would be expected that they would turn a blind eye to what Armenia did.

I wouldn't equate Turkish and Armenian history of those lands. Those lands for a much longer time have been historically Armenian, and after the 1915 events, when there were little to no Armenians left, the people who the lands was left to was the Kurds who till this day are a majority there. The Armenian history of those lands has to be preserved by the Turkish state, not only physically but also in literature.

Armenian could have been there 2 or 3 or 4 times more than Turks but it doesn't make those lands less for Turks who have been living there for centuries. Majority of the lands you're referring to are hardly Kurdish majority. The fact is the lands are not Armenian. It haven't been for more than 5 centuries and nothings changing that.

[PointOfViewGun]

I'm not saying that all Armenians are attacked, but I can concur that more violence comes about against Armenians than other foreigners.

16 Russians died in a bus crash this May. As there is still no evidence that the girl was murdered that should count too?

One German tourist/German jail escapee got stabbed in Istanbul last year.

Anyway, through July and August, there were 2 planes going back and forth every day for tourism. So we're talking about a huge number of tourists yet very limited number of incidents even though two groups are open to provocations.

I wonder though, how many Turks feel comfortable to come to Armenia for vacation...

They didn't only water, they ordered other things, but the cost of the water was 1000. The owner of the restaurant came and said you have to pay 1000 (when they were finished with everything) or else he would call the police. Though I can't comment if it was a respectable restaurant or not, most likely it wasn't.

And it doesn't sound true as I said in Turkey they don't give you a check with what to pay for each piece of food or drink you got. Your uncle wouldn't know the water cost 1000 whatever that is for water in the first place.

Why can't longevity of stay make those lands more Armenian? It's only logical that it would. I'm not denying that Turks, Kurds have lived there but today's political situation can't override a whole history.

Because it's not a pissing contest to see which one has more scratches on the wall representing the number of days they lived on that land. Armenians living there for thousands of years doesn't make it less Turkish. As a people they the right to go back there and live but the state of Armenia doesn't have any right over the lands. At least there wasn't an Armenian state governing over the lands for the last few thousand years.

The Karabakh preconditions began to crop up before the constitutional decision, and besides there was a lot of pressure against Turkish politicians for doing it as many didn't want to ruin relations with Azerbaijan.

Nope, I checked. There were people raising the Karabakh issue before the signing of the protocols but after the signing they died down only to be raised after the decision by the constitutional court. Azerbaijan protested the signings but their voice died down after their visit to Ankara and there was no mentioning of Karabakh as I said. No organ of the Turkish government ever used Karabakh issue legally as a precondition anyway.

What that clause is basically saying is that the normalisation of the relations won't stop Armenia supporting international genocide recognition. That is not a precondition, that's simply saying that Armenia will continue with the effort which it has always done since independence. This is not putting any requirement on Turkey, it's simply a small phrase which is saying that the status quo will be kept.

At worst, it's a limitation to the protocol which is completely against the nature of the protocols. You're downplaying the section too much. What the section implies to is the historical committee that Turkey have been proposing for years. It basically says that nothing that has the possibility of undermining the genocide claims can be put forward. That's pretty much a limitation the protocols which is completely stupid.

[PointOfViewGun]

Not many Turks go to Armenia, but a group came for the soccer match and they were treated fine. Armenians in Armenia care more about money than what ethnicity they are.

And the Armenian team came to Bursa to play a match as well last year and they were treated fine. Thousand in total participated in religious services that were deemed provocative by certain groups in Turkey but nothing serious happened. At one side you have minimal, if any, harassment towards Armenians in Turkey due to their ethnicity and at an other side you have Turks not going to Armenian because they fear of harassment.

What do you mean they don't give you check?? In all cafes and restaurants in Armenia they give a check which lists what you ordered, how can this not be true in Turkey?

They give you a check where the amount you owe is written. A detailed check would only be given at a higher level restaurant. Not all cafes and restaurant give you a detailed check, you have to ask for one to get a detailed one.

Well I'm not saying politically it's Armenian lands nor saying it's viable for such lands to be returned to the Armenian state. But I am saying that given the history of Armenians living in that area, and the cultural markers that they left should never be understated. Some of the biggest Armenian cultural centers (cities) were in this area, sure other groups like Turks, Kurds, Georgians lived but that doesn't take away from the fact of the Armenian significance to that region, which in my opinion is underestimated in Turkey.

This is sort of a non-issue. All states underestimate the cultural heritage they reside on. Turkey is not an exception on this. The exception of Turkey though is that it has too many cultural heritages and not enough money to go around and secure all of them. I hardly believe that Armenia or Armenian diaspora have been much helpful on this though.

So how was Azerbaijan quieted? I really don't see any other way than the Karabakh precondition to quiet them. Plus, given the decision by the constitutional court was not a precondition they shouldn't have raised the Karabakh issue.

see this article it dates to the 16th of April 2009, the constitutional court made its decision in January 2010. Already the foreign minister was tying in Karabakh to the whole process.
Here's another article this time from the military commander who was making the connection

The provision does nothing to counter such a historical committee, which I don't believe was part of the normalisation effort. It's merely supporting the recognition of the Genocide by other nations. I don't see how you extract the statement that anything which has the possibility of undermining the genocide claims cannot be put forward from this section. It's saying again that the protocols will not in any way cease Armenia from supporting international genocide recognition, unless Turkey and Armenia had previously agreed that if they normalised relations Armenia would stop supporting international recognition of the genocide, than there is no limitation here.

You can clearly see that the articles are way before the signing of the protocols thus actually support my arguments. Moreover, in the first article, there isn't even a quote on the foreign minister saying that the protocols would pass through the parliament if the Karabakh issue was resolved or anything close to that, not that it would change anything. Also, a minister talking about it doesn't make it an official precondition as the constitutional court of Armenia did. One more thing, what the commander says means nothing.

We've already went through the decision of constitutional court of Armenia and it's 3 references are clear conditions put on the protocols. You simply don't wanna accept that.

Azerbaijan committee came to Ankara to express their protest and they were sent back content. No one declared that the Karabakh issue would became a part of the protocols. They only said that Turkey still has interest in favour of Azerbaijan and that was it whether you like it or not.

The historical committee was covered in the protocols:

implement a dialogue on the historical dimension with the aim to restore mutual confidence between the two nations, including an impartial scientific examination of the historical records and archives to define existing problems and formulate recommendations;

The decision says that nothing can be interpreted or applied if it contradicts with paragraph 11 of Armenian deceleration of independence. This basically gives Armenia a legal right to terminate the protocols as it pleases by simple interpreting an action to go against that paragraph 11. It's a clear condition and limitation put forward by Armenia. Simply if this historical committee finds anything that undermines the purpose of paragraph 11 it will be dismissed by Armenia killing the purpose of the protocols all together.

I think you're not comprehending what a protocol is. A protocol is a set of guidelines put forth to help two parties move forward. Putting restrictions and conditions on them is completely against the nature of it and that's exactly what Armenia did in the highest degree of legality by it's constitutional court.

[Armenum]

The decision says that nothing can be interpreted or applied if it contradicts with paragraph 11 of Armenian deceleration of independence. This basically gives Armenia a legal right to terminate the protocols as it pleases by simple interpreting an action to go against that paragraph 11. It's a clear condition and limitation put forward by Armenia. Simply if this historical committee finds anything that undermines the purpose of paragraph 11 it will be dismissed by Armenia killing the purpose of the protocols all together.

I think you're not comprehending what a protocol is. A protocol is a set of guidelines put forth to help two parties move forward. Putting restrictions and conditions on them is completely against the nature of it and that's exactly what Armenia did in the highest degree of legality by it's constitutional court.

But what you are stating here is a hypothetical condition, not a definite one. The Karabakh condition for example requires for it to be solved simultaneously with the normalisation. All this article is saying is that these protocols should not affect the global genocide recognition drive that's been happening for decades. Given the normalisation efforts don't touch upon the 1915 events or genocide recognition there's very little room for error.

The clear message from the beginning was not to tie in Karabakh or history into the normalisation efforts, all the constitutional court said is that the protocols cannot go against its constitution (which is perfectly valid), meaning Turkey cannot require Armenia to stop the genocide recognition course as a result of the normalisation. That's what it's saying bluntly. In a way, it's preventing Turkey from putting its own precondition regarding the genocide, which makes sense since the normalisation is supposed to have been without any conditions.

[PointOfViewGun]

But what you are stating here is a hypothetical condition, not a definite one. The Karabakh condition for example requires for it to be solved simultaneously with the normalisation. All this article is saying is that these protocols should not affect the global genocide recognition drive that's been happening for decades. Given the normalisation efforts don't touch upon the 1915 events or genocide recognition there's very little room for error.

The clear message from the beginning was not to tie in Karabakh or history into the normalisation efforts, all the constitutional court said is that the protocols cannot go against its constitution (which is perfectly valid), meaning Turkey cannot require Armenia to stop the genocide recognition course as a result of the normalisation. That's what it's saying bluntly. In a way, it's preventing Turkey from putting its own precondition regarding the genocide, which makes sense since the normalisation is supposed to have been without any conditions.

All restrictions and conditions are hypothetical. Though one can argue that the condition the court put forward automatically eliminates historical discussion between the parties. I don't think that when Armenians signed the protocols that called for historical discussion they thought Turks were gonna talk about history of French revolution. The conditions that the court put forwards pretty much changed the protocols. This is rather clean. I hardly think that Armenians didn't read the protocols before signing it. Protocols are vague guidelines as I've mentioned before. It doesn't matter what the intent was to include or exclude from the agreement.

At the end of the day, Armenia sent the protocols to be reviewed by the court instead of sending it to parliament right away as Turkey did. The only preconditions set were the ones set by the protocols and that was to vote them in the parliament. Turkey didn't put any other legal preconditions. The protocols were sent to the parliament to be voted on when it's turn came. It doesn't matter who raised what issue after this.

I assume we have established now that there is no formidable propaganda against Armenians in Turkey. I hope that you won't make such a statement again in the future now that you know.

[Dr. Oza]

So we're going to go into a "who killed more" argument? I deeply despise the ASLA and the actions they did, as do most right minded Armenians. They were a small group of ultra-nationalistic, western Armenians whose relatives had fled the killings, and were misguided in doing those things, and in no way do they represent Republic of Armenia or Eastern Armenians.

u started it


and the asla? how about their spiritual daddy and father organization

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia...281918-1920.29

they seem to be well received in armenia

Actually it does. First of all Turkey won't get into the EU without open borders and normalised relations, especially given the fact that the blockade is internationally illegal. Second of all, trade with Armenia will great help the improvised Eastern region of Turkey, and this is evident by the support that many people in Eastern Turkey have for open borders, like farmers, business owners, city politicians, etc.

turkey is gonna get into the eu , but this isnt even in the concerns.. go read the eu commisioners report... the eu wants turkey because of economic potential, but the political environment in europe is a bit hostile as of now, so they make excuses ... but turkey can keep on blockading armenia for all time and no one will care

that being said, i dont want turkey to join the eu anyhow

and eastern turkey is one of the most nationalistic and religious parts of turkey... and eastern turkish businessmen actually are some of the top business leaders in turkey (thanks to Ozal) do you have any sources or proof of their wanting of an open border?

armenia is a nation whose population is less than greater malatya ... its impact will be MINISCULE at the best

and it has no resources or goods that turkey needs or doesnt have.. how and why would open borders help turkey economically?

First of all you're greatly underestimating the kingdom of Cilicia. This was the golden age for Armenian culture, nobility, language etc. We had powerful allies and powerful cultural contacts. The kingdom lasted for 176 years, so it's not really short lived either.

am i? first of all 176 years is very short for a kingdom... i mean come on... ottomans-800 years french- lets say 700ish years.. etc...

and they were continouslyl bossed around by the franks, and byzies ...

the golden age of the armenians was probably actually under the ottomans 1500-1800 .. they dominated trade, commerce, gold and jewelry manufactoring and rapidly increased in population size

You're really going to compare an ancestral homeland of a people to a small village existed with a portion of khans?

yes, deal with it...

and that village is essentially all of armenia

[Armenum]

u started it


and the asla? how about their spiritual daddy and father organization

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia...281918-1920.29

they seem to be well received in armenia

no they are not well received, and ARF was banned in the 90s. ARF is only well received among western armenians.

turkey is gonna get into the eu , but this isnt even in the concerns.. go read the eu commisioners report... the eu wants turkey because of economic potential, but the political environment in europe is a bit hostile as of now, so they make excuses ... but turkey can keep on blockading armenia for all time and no one will care

that being said, i dont want turkey to join the eu anyhow

and eastern turkey is one of the most nationalistic and religious parts of turkey... and eastern turkish businessmen actually are some of the top business leaders in turkey (thanks to Ozal) do you have any sources or proof of their wanting of an open border?

armenia is a nation whose population is less than greater malatya ... its impact will be MINISCULE at the best

and it has no resources or goods that turkey needs or doesnt have.. how and why would open borders help turkey economically?

Are you proud that Turkey is doing an illegal blockade? There's absolutely nothing to be proud of and if Turkey wants to get serious about EU it will have to come to terms with this.

This is simple economics, you would have trade flowing through the borders thus the places through which this economic flow occurs would benefit, like north-eastern turkey. People living in such locations naturally support this.

am i? first of all 176 years is very short for a kingdom... i mean come on... ottomans-800 years french- lets say 700ish years.. etc...

and they were continouslyl bossed around by the franks, and byzies ...

the golden age of the armenians was probably actually under the ottomans 1500-1800 .. they dominated trade, commerce, gold and jewelry manufactoring and rapidly increased in population size

It was a kingdom in a very chaotic place at the time; given the chaos the 176 years is a good number. Yes it was a golden age also during that time, and of course Armenians also flourished under the Ottoman Empire, though Western Armenians are historically closer with the Ottoman culture; it's the Western Armenians that have a deeper connection, heck they sometimes mix in Turkish words when they speak, especially the older speakers.

yes, deal with it...

and that village is essentially all of armenia

No that village is not, it's the city of Yerevan which was really built during the Soviet Era. That Erivan village was a small unimportant village. The Soviet Union made it into what it is now.

I wonder though, how many Turks feel comfortable to come to Armenia for vacation.

Not many Turks go to Armenia, but a group came for the soccer match and they were treated fine. Armenians in Armenia care more about money than what ethnicity they are.

And it doesn't sound true as I said in Turkey they don't give you a check with what to pay for each piece of food or drink you got. Your uncle wouldn't know the water cost 1000 whatever that is for water in the first place.

What do you mean they don't give you check?? In all cafes and restaurants in Armenia they give a check which lists what you ordered, how can this not be true in Turkey?

Because it's not a pissing contest to see which one has more scratches on the wall representing the number of days they lived on that land. Armenians living there for thousands of years doesn't make it less Turkish. As a people they the right to go back there and live but the state of Armenia doesn't have any right over the lands. At least there wasn't an Armenian state governing over the lands for the last few thousand years.

Well I'm not saying politically it's Armenian lands nor saying it's viable for such lands to be returned to the Armenian state. But I am saying that given the history of Armenians living in that area, and the cultural markers that they left should never be understated. Some of the biggest Armenian cultural centers (cities) were in this area, sure other groups like Turks, Kurds, Georgians lived but that doesn't take away from the fact of the Armenian significance to that region, which in my opinion is underestimated in Turkey.

Nope, I checked. There were people raising the Karabakh issue before the signing of the protocols but after the signing they died down only to be raised after the decision by the constitutional court. Azerbaijan protested the signings but their voice died down after their visit to Ankara and there was no mentioning of Karabakh as I said. No organ of the Turkish government ever used Karabakh issue legally as a precondition anyway.

So how was Azerbaijan quieted? I really don't see any other way than the Karabakh precondition to quiet them. Plus, given the decision by the constitutional court was not a precondition they shouldn't have raised the Karabakh issue.

see this article it dates to the 16th of April 2009, the constitutional court made its decision in January 2010. Already the foreign minister was tying in Karabakh to the whole process.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Babacan: We want Turkey, Armenia and Azerbaijan to win Turkish Foreign Minister Ali Babacan has said Turkey sees relations between it and Armenia from a broad perspective and that Ankara is looking for a solution in which Turkey, Armenia and Azerbaijan will all be winners. "As Turkey, we want a solution in which everybody is a winner. We want Turkey, Armenia and Azerbaijan to win," he said on his way to the 20th Black Sea Economic Cooperation (BSEC) Foreign Ministers Council in Yerevan yesterday.
He also said Turkey is seeking "comprehensive and complete normalization."
"We don't say, 'Let's first solve one problem and solve the other later.' We want a similar process to start between Azerbaijan and Armenia. We are closely watching the talks between Azerbaijan and Armenia," he added.
Turkish and Armenian officials have been attempting to create a formula for normalizing relations between their countries, but Armenia's dispute with Azerbaijan over Nagorno-Karabakh looms in the background as a potential deal breaker.
Azerbaijan, Turkey's strategic and ethnic ally, has been uneasy with prospects of a rapprochement between Ankara and Yerevan, fearing it will lose key leverage in the Nagorno-Karabakh dispute if Turkey opens its border and restarts diplomatic ties with Armenia. Ankara has previously said normalization with Armenia is contingent on a resolution in the dispute over Nagorno-Karabakh, which has been under Armenian occupation since 1991.
A high-level diplomatic source said, "Turkey cares about Azerbaijan's problems at least as much as the Azerbaijanis themselves." The two countries have long boasted of their relationship as exemplary, describing themselves as "one nation with two states" to highlight their ethnic and strategic ties.
Azerbaijan's concerns have been fueled by media reports indicating that Turkey and Armenia could reach a deal to open their border as early as this month. But Turkish officials, dismissing such reports, have said the Turkish-Armenian border could be opened in October, when Armenian President Serzh Sarksyan is due to visit Turkey to watch a World Cup qualifying match between the national teams of the two countries.
Sources say Ankara will use the time until then to ease Azerbaijan's concerns and insist on progress in international efforts for the resolution on the Nagorno-Karabakh issue before proceeding with efforts to normalize ties with Armenia, even though Armenia rejects any link between the issues.
Armenian Foreign Minister Edward Nalbandian said yesterday at a BSEC press conference, "Turkey and Armenia have gone a long way toward opening the Turkey-Armenia border, and they will come closer to opening it soon." He said there had been no agreement yet between the two sides regarding opening of the border.
Asked about the potential opening of the Turkish-Armenian border, Azerbaijani Foreign Minister Mahmud Mammad Guliev said the solution to the two countries' problems should be tied to the solution of the dispute between Azerbaijan and Armenia.
Nalbandian, on the other hand, said the Nagorno-Karabakh dispute is being handled through the Minsk Group, created to find a solution to the Nagorno-Karabakh issue by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) in 1992 and co-chaired by Russia, the United States and France.
Asked if Azerbaijan has reservations about Turkey's ongoing talks with Armenia, Guliev said Azerbaijanis believe Turkey will protect their interests.
Just as there is ongoing dialogue between Turkey and Armenia, there is also a parallel and ongoing process between Armenia and Azerbaijan. Sarksyan and Azerbaijani President İlham Aliyev have met three times over the last year.
Yesterday Babacan met with Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov and Azerbaijani Foreign Minister Guliev before leaving Yerevan. He also had talks with Sarksyan and Nalbandian.
Meanwhile, Russian officials expressed a desire for better neighborly relations between Turkey, Azerbaijan and Armenia. Through a statement from their embassy in Ankara, Russian officials said, "Russia has been astonished to see media reports about Russia attempting to persuade Baku that normalization of relations between Ankara and Yerevan is aimed at marginalizing Baku." Russian officials said these allegations are baseless and that they have not changed their foreign policy of promoting stability and peace in the region.
Black Sea highway agreement approved

Meanwhile, the Turkish Parliament's Foreign Relations Committee approved the "Agreement to Improve the Black Sea Highway" yesterday. At the deliberations in Parliament the main opposition Republican People's Party (CHP) expressed concern that the highway runs through Yerevan and requested a map. Officials said that there has been no map drawn yet and that they are only dealing with the area within the borders of Turkey.
16.04.2009 News MUSTAFA ÜNAL

Here's another article this time from the military commander who was making the connection

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Commander says Armenia border opening linked to Karabakh Turkey's top military commander said yesterday that opening the border with neighboring Armenia should be linked to Yerevan's territorial dispute with Azerbaijan over Nagorno-Karabakh, namely, that the border should be opened in parallel to progress in the long-standing conflict. "The prime minister has clearly said the border opening will take place at the time when Armenian troops are withdrawn. We completely agree with this," Chief of General Staff Gen. İlker Başbuğ said at a press conference yesterday.
Turkey and Armenia have been holding talks to normalize relations and agreed last week on a framework to restore ties. Azerbaijan, an ethnic and regional ally of Turkey, is protesting the rapprochement, fearing it would lose a key leverage in its dispute with Armenia in the Nagorno-Karabakh row if Turkey opens its border with Armenia. The process is strongly backed by the United States and the European Union.
On Tuesday, Turkey's top military and political officials declared that the history of the Turkish and Armenian nations could be discussed only in an environment where unbiased documents and pieces of evidence are available, sending a veiled message to US President Barack Obama, who called the killings of Armenians in the years of World War I "one of the great atrocities of the 20th century" in a commemorative message delivered on April 24.
Top government and military leaders discussed the issue at a meeting of the National Security Council (MGK) on Tuesday, held at the Çankaya presidential palace under the leadership of President Abdullah Gül. In a statement released by the MGK following the meeting, the officials said: "The recent statements of some of the countries and our initiatives regarding the events of 1915 have been evaluated. However, it has been emphasized that the history of the Turkish and Armenian nations can be discussed only in … a scientific and unbiased fashion."
Obama refrained from using the word "genocide" to describe the 1915 events in order not to harm the ongoing Turkish-Armenian rapprochement process, but said his view of history had not changed. Obama made clear during his election campaign that the events amounted to genocide, a charge Turkey vehemently denies. He also used the Armenian phrase "Meds Yeghern," translated as Great Calamity, twice in the text. The message was harshly criticized by the Turkish government and opposition parties.
"That there was no mention of the fact that hundreds of thousands of Turks were also killed in the events is one of the serious deficiencies of the text," Foreign Minister Ali Babacan said yesterday in Parliament. Babacan reiterated that Turkey has proposed establishment a joint committee of historians to study what happened in 1915 and added that it was unacceptable for Obama to express a judgment before that committee reaches a conclusion on whether the events amounted to genocide. "We will remain loyal to historical facts and refute unfounded claims no matter who makes them," Babacan said.
Babacan also said political consultations with Armenia will start within the next few weeks as part of the normalization process, without elaborating.
‘None of Israel’s business’

At the press conference, Başbuğ was also asked to comment on the first Turkish-Syrian joint military drill on the border and Israel's reaction to the unprecedented exercise. "We are not interested in Israel's reaction. This is something between Syria and Turkey," Başbuğ told reporters. The exercise began on Monday and was due to be completed yesterday.
On Afghanistan, Başbuğ said Turkey was expected to take over the command of the international peacekeeping force in Kabul in November as part of a rotation among the contributing countries. When it takes over the command, Turkey may have to send additional forces to boost its 795-800 troops in Afghanistan, he said, but insisted that the Turkish forces' duties and responsibilities will remain the same.
Ankara backs the US-led efforts to stabilize Afghanistan but says it will not send combat troops to confront the Taliban insurgents there. Başbuğ also emphasized that there has been no request from the US to Turkey to increase contributions to the Afghan force.
Time for elimination of PKK

Başbuğ also commented on relations with Iraq and efforts to deal with the outlawed Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), which uses bases in northern Iraq to attack Turkey. He said the best chance ever to eliminate the PKK in Iraq has materialized and added that the Iraqi administration as well as the semi-autonomous Kurdish administration running northern Iraq has a key role in making sure this chance is seized.
"It is imperative that the local [Kurdish] administration actively take part in these efforts. We must get solid results this year," Başbuğ said.
30.04.2009 News TODAY'S ZAMAN

At worst, it's a limitation to the protocol which is completely against the nature of the protocols. You're downplaying the section too much. What the section implies to is the historical committee that Turkey have been proposing for years. It basically says that nothing that has the possibility of undermining the genocide claims can be put forward. That's pretty much a limitation the protocols which is completely stupid.

The provision does nothing to counter such a historical committee, which I don't believe was part of the normalisation effort. It's merely supporting the recognition of the Genocide by other nations. I don't see how you extract the statement that anything which has the possibility of undermining the genocide claims cannot be put forward from this section. It's saying again that the protocols will not in any way cease Armenia from supporting international genocide recognition, unless Turkey and Armenia had previously agreed that if they normalised relations Armenia would stop supporting international recognition of the genocide, than there is no limitation here.

[dogukan]

This thread is as a result a discussion that branched out of another thread....
wait so Sevan said that such a program couldn't take place? First of all who is Sevan and what are his credentials? Second of all has an opendebate regarding the 1915 events ever taken place in Turkish media? And lastly, has there even been an attempt for a Turkish side to go to Armenian television and talk about the "Turkish" side of events.

Sevan Nişanyan is a badass. He lives in Turkey and his critisizm of Turkey is VERY high. He even show Ottoman society as a good example compared to Turkey's fascistic nationalism.
He openly critisizes Atatürk...In fact currently I'm a reading a book of his called "The wrong Republic" about Turkey.
Also he speaks 5-6 languages fluently studied in best high schools in Turkey.

[The Noble Lord]

Sevan Nişanyan is a badass. He lives in Turkey and his critisizm of Turkey is VERY high. He even show Ottoman society as a good example compared to Turkey's fascistic nationalism.
He openly critisizes Atatürk...In fact currently I'm a reading a book of his called "The wrong Republic" about Turkey.
Also he speaks 5-6 languages fluently studied in best high schools in Turkey.

Does Sevan Nisanyan live in Turkey right now??

[PointOfViewGun]

Does Sevan Nisanyan live in Turkey right now??

Kinda both. He have business in Turkey and moves back and forth a lot but mostly Turkey. That's the impression I got from the program he participated in.

How is it another branch? It's the same branch, plus I have every right to bring in new facts supporting my argument.

Using new words to make what you say sound more sophisticated does not really fall in the "bringing new facts" category.

Tell me how it specificly altered the texts?? It really went in and changed the protocols? All the court said was that the protocols have to be in compliance with the constitution, thus it has to be in compliance with paragraph 11, which is rather relevant in this case.

The court didn't say that the protocols had to be on compliance with the constitution but said that the protocols had to be in compliance with paragraph 11 of the Armenian declaration of independence. Does it mean that the protocols doesn't have to be in compliance of other sections of the constitution?

They referenced the paragraphs which were relevant to ties with Turkey, and the genocide recognition is very relevant to ties in Turkey. They just want to emphasise that they won't change that clause under any circumstance. If it was re-establishing ties with Azerbaijan, for example, they wouldn't mention it.

If the protocols were in par with the constitution then the court would feel no need to mention any specific articles and it would be not more than a single paragraph.
If they were not in line with the constitution then any decision they would simply reject them.
If they were not completely in line with the constitution but the court wanted to alter it to fit Armenian demands then they would do what they did in 12th of January.
Pretty clear, isn't it?

The president said that the normalisation wouldn't continue without Karabakh, a very clear pre-condition, so what he's just making things up? Stop trying to ignore this fact.

I'm still waiting for an official announcement or a legal actions. Though you didn't even back that up with an article.

I don't know how much clearer evidence you need...

Now it would be much better if you posted the link to your source or is there something you're hiding?

I think you're confused on the definition of a restriction. Re-affirming that the protocols have to be constitutional is not restricting, it's re-affirming. And the historical committee was not be used to discuss the validity of genocide, you've posted that text read it carefully. And you know very well Armenia would never agree to talks regarding the validity.

You're twisting reality pretty nicely here. Read the text carefully, use whatever logic you have and then read my previous posts. It's not quantum mechanics.

No it's the correct argument, and the reality. The argument here is crystal clear, but you insist on rejecting everything and playing the victim role, even denying that Turkey put a pre-condition, which even Turkish leaders would admit that they did.

It's the correct argument for you as you desperately need it to ignore how stupid your jump to your own conclusion was.

You're getting pretty good at using my words by the way.

[Armenum]

Using new words to make what you say sound more sophisticated does not really fall in the "bringing new facts" category.

you think I'm trying to sound more sophisticated?? Ok I'll just stop commenting about this it's getting ridiculous..

The court didn't say that the protocols had to be on compliance with the constitution but said that the protocols had to be in compliance with paragraph 11 of the Armenian declaration of independence. Does it mean that the protocols doesn't have to be in compliance of other sections of the constitution?

Ok the court checks if the protocols are in compliance with the entire constitution; if it hadn't been they would have rejected it from the start. Being in compliance with the constitution, all the court did in the ruling was emphasize the fact that the treaty has to be in compliance with the constitution, especially paragraph 11, to tell Turkey "you can't affect our support of our genocide recognition abroad" this is not a restriction as this clause already exists in Armenia's constitution; if it didn't than it would be a restriction.

If the protocols were in par with the constitution then the court would feel no need to mention any specific articles and it would be not more than a single paragraph.
If they were not in line with the constitution then any decision they would simply reject them.
If they were not completely in line with the constitution but the court wanted to alter it to fit Armenian demands then they would do what they did in 12th of January.
Pretty clear, isn't it?

refer above.

I'm still waiting for an official announcement or a legal actions. Though you didn't even back that up with an article.

yes I did, and what Erdogan said is crystal clear.

Now it would be much better if you posted the link to your source or is there something you're hiding?

You really think I'm trying to hide something?? The article was written by Today's Zaman: http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/de...ay&link=175222

the second quote was talking about the Zaman article.
http://www.caspianweekly.org/compone...bakh-row-.html

from zaman,

Aliyev, who refused to attend an Alliance of Civilizations meeting in İstanbul in April in protest of Turkish-Armenian reconciliation efforts, said he was grateful for Erdoğan's statement. “There could be no clearer answer than this. There is no doubt anymore,” Aliyev said.

Even the evidence right in front of you, you still deny facts.

You're twisting reality pretty nicely here. Read the text carefully, use whatever logic you have and then read my previous posts. It's not quantum mechanics.

You say that the court's ruling is a restriction which is not true. The clause exists in the Armenian constitution all they are doing is highlighting it, that's not a restriction, a restriction would be if in their ruling they included a clause that didn't exist in the constitution.

It's the correct argument for you as you desperately need it to ignore how stupid your jump to your own conclusion was.

It's a pretty clear conclusion.

You're getting pretty good at using my words by the way.

Maybe it's because I'm responding to you....

[PointOfViewGun]

you think I'm trying to sound more sophisticated?? Ok I'll just stop commenting about this it's getting ridiculous..

That would be your wisest decision.

Ok the court checks if the protocols are in compliance with the entire constitution; if it hadn't been they would have rejected it from the start. Being in compliance with the constitution, all the court did in the ruling was emphasize the fact that the treaty has to be in compliance with the constitution, especially paragraph 11, to tell Turkey "you can't affect our support of our genocide recognition abroad" this is not a restriction as this clause already exists in Armenia's constitution; if it didn't than it would be a restriction.

refer above.

Your respond still doesn't cover my post. So I repeat:

If the protocols were in par with the constitution then the court would feel no need to mention any specific articles and it would be not more than a single paragraph.
If they were not in line with the constitution then any decision they would simply reject them.
If they were not completely in line with the constitution but the court wanted to alter it to fit Armenian demands then they would do what they did in 12th of January.
Pretty clear, isn't it?

yes I did, and what Erdogan said is crystal clear.

Was it a legal action or an official declaration by the Turkish government?

You really think I'm trying to hide something?? The article was written by Today's Zaman: http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/de...ay&link=175222

the second quote was talking about the Zaman article.
http://www.caspianweekly.org/compone...bakh-row-.html

from zaman,

Even the evidence right in front of you, you still deny facts.

Did you care to check the time these articles were written? If you did please tell me which month comes first; May or October? I'm really bad at following a calender.

Oh also, take the time to check what evidence means from a dictionary, please.

You say that the court's ruling is a restriction which is not true. The clause exists in the Armenian constitution all they are doing is highlighting it, that's not a restriction, a restriction would be if in their ruling they included a clause that didn't exist in the constitution.

It would only be a restriction if they included a clause that didn't exist in the constitution? How is that supposed to make sense? Come on, you're capable of making much better arguments. Not this crap. It doesn't even make any logical sense.

It's a pretty clear conclusion.

Thank you.

Maybe it's because I'm responding to you....

Sure.

[The Noble Lord]

Kinda both. He have business in Turkey and moves back and forth a lot but mostly Turkey. That's the impression I got from the program he participated in.

Well then, if he is that outspoken and critical of the contemporary Turkish society and he lives and prospers in Turkey then it shows that Turkey is really making great and genuine changes for the better and should be given more credit by the EU and other critics than it is at the moment!
I am not very much familiar with his career in particular, but will pay attention to him and his work from now on.

[PointOfViewGun]

Well then, if he is that outspoken and critical of the contemporary Turkish society and he lives and prospers in Turkey then it shows that Turkey is really making great and genuine changes for the better and should be given more credit by the EU and other critics than it is at the moment!
I am not very much familiar with his career in particular, but will pay attention to him and his work from now on.

Well, he has been prospering for decades now and the program he attended was like 4 hours long and they continued a week after with another 4 hours. If you think that Armenians are subject to a formidable discrimination in Turkey then you're dead wrong.

[Dr. Oza]

To tell you the truth I was surprised a bit. To have someone so openly and publicly being bale to criticize the Turkish authorities and its founding principles and still not be dissident and exile but to actually be in Turkey and prosper, yes I was bit surprised. But it's a good thing, it clearly demonstrates that things are moving forward in Turkey for the better and the entire country is adjusting and changing. That is why Turkey and the current AKP government should be given more credit than they are at the moment! They really are doing positive things and making the entire mentality of the Turkish society change. Fascinating in itself.

people do not really realize that armenians are totally fine in turkey

the most famous and richest jewelers are armenians.. they operate shops in the grand bazaar , and do not hide their armenian-ness

if u go to the adas, its almost all armenians

etc...

on CNN TURK and HABER TURK, there are armenians and kurds openly debating about whatever they want...

[Dr. Oza]

It's not only about few thousand people being fine in Turkey or how a small minority is treated, this issue is about the core of the problem and that is; the events of 1915, last 80 years of dealing with that issue, closed border between Turkey and Armenia and current Turkish-Armenian relations.

those events are irrlevant, and armenians were never officially targeted nor were they targeted as an entire group.. armenians in the west were not affected at all

only armenians in the east, where the russians were active ... there were 150,000 armenians in the ottoman army.. i mean ,.. come on...

the border will remain shut until armenia give something in return for openining, if not.. then boohoo

and current armenian relations are not good because both countries play on their populations misguided hate for each other to get votes...