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Thread: Vietnamese Heritage and Freedom Flag: Really?

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  1. #1

    Default Vietnamese Heritage and Freedom Flag: Really?

    Or "How The Vietnam War Just Won't Die Already".

    I recently discovered that the flag of South Vietnam has been adopted as the "Vietnamese Heritage and Freedom Flag" in three states, seven counties and eighty-five cities of the USA. I know that the Second Indochina War is a touchy subject, so I'll choose my words carefully. To me, this is a collosal case of sour grapes; overseas Vietnamese still rejecting the outcome of a war that finished decades ago. They are not unique in this respect (see the Cuban exiles, for instance), but that doesn't make their actions any less juvenile. More importantly, choosing the flag of South Vietnam to be the Vietnamese Heritage and Freedom Flag betrays a fundamental ignorance of history.

    South Vietnam was worse than North Vietnam.

    Before anyone jumps at me for being a Commie apologist, I am not attempting to whitewash the DRV. It is an authoritarian Communist state, albeit one in the mold of modern-day China. And in its heyday, it was far worse. But even then, it pales in comparison to South Vietnam. South Vietnam - as many people forget - was not a democracy before or during the Vietnam War. It was an autocratic state. While North Vietnam obviously purged some anti-Communist elements, South Vietnam - seeking not to be outdone - purged far more and in far greater quantity. While the North had stable government, the South had a series of coups and power struggles. The Vietnam War was not black-and-white; rather, it was black-and-gray, with South Vietnam most definitely in the black. More importantly, it was a French colony, and then a French puppet, and finally a French-backed satellite.

    It is ridicilous to use the flag of a French-controlled dictatorship as the symbol of Vietnamese heritage and freedom.

    And now, let me clear up a few misconceptions about the flag of Vietnam.

    The five points of the yellow star do not represent the five colonies of French Indochina. Instead, the star represents unity and its points represent five groups: workers, peasants, soldiers, intellectuals and young people. This is common for Communist symbols. Similarly, attempts to link this to French colonialism also fail, since the flag of South Vietnam was introduced under France, anyway.

    The red background of the flag references the famous red flag of the Paris Commune. Detractors say that, since it is a Communist flag, it cannot represent the Vietnamese. This ignores the fact that the South Vietnamese flag was originally used by the Vietnamese Emperor, and I doubt any modern-day Vietnamese want a return to the monarchy.

    Opinions?

  2. #2
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default Re: Vietnamese Heritage and Freedom Flag: Really?

    1) Most Vietnamese in the US are South Vietnamese who are not friendly with the government of Vietnam, just like Cuban exiles in the US.

    2) The South Vietnamese flag is the traditional flag of Vietnam dating back to the 19th Century. The current Vietnamese flag only dates to the mid 20th Century.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

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  3. #3

    Default Re: Vietnamese Heritage and Freedom Flag: Really?

    can there be no reconciliation?

    Vietnam isn't communist any more is it?

  4. #4

    Default Re: Vietnamese Heritage and Freedom Flag: Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by irelandeb View Post
    can there be no reconciliation?

    Vietnam isn't communist any more is it?
    From a quick wiki:

    The Socialist Republic of Vietnam is a single-party state. A new state constitution was approved in April 1992, replacing the 1975 version. The central role of the Communist Party of Vietnam was reasserted in all organs of government, politics and society.

    Only political organizations affiliated with or endorsed by the Communist Party are permitted to contest elections. These include the Vietnamese Fatherland Front, worker and trade unionist parties. Although the state remains officially committed to socialism as its defining creed it is increasingly capitalist, according to The Economist it is currently run by "ardently capitalist communists".


    If you ever find violence doesn't solves anything, you haven't used enough.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Vietnamese Heritage and Freedom Flag: Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by GreyFox View Post
    -snip-
    Saying someone is an "ardently capitalist communist" - like The Economist has done - is akin to claiming someone is an ardently autocratic democrat. The two systems are incompatible; you're either one or the other. And since Vietnam has an increasingly capitalist economy, "communist" doesn't really apply anymore.

  6. #6
    Claudius Gothicus's Avatar Petit Burgués
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    Default Re: Vietnamese Heritage and Freedom Flag: Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Syriana View Post
    Saying someone is an "ardently capitalist communist" - like The Economist has done - is akin to claiming someone is an ardently autocratic democrat. The two systems are incompatible; you're either one or the other. And since Vietnam has an increasingly capitalist economy, "communist" doesn't really apply anymore.
    The Economist means that they're ''capitalist autocrats'', yet they still call themselves communists.

    Just like the Bureaucratically Authoritarian ones in South America back in the 70's or China(only these regimes identified themselves with right wing symbols)

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    gaunty14's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Vietnamese Heritage and Freedom Flag: Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by irelandeb View Post
    can there be no reconciliation?

    Vietnam isn't communist any more is it?

    I believe it is "Authoritarian" or "Nationalist" or something similer anyway .

    If it is Communist then it is a very diluted form

    "will help build battle station for food" - or rep

  8. #8
    Jingles's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Vietnamese Heritage and Freedom Flag: Really?

    Well really the lesson here is that disenfranchised people can act like idiots out of spite.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Vietnamese Heritage and Freedom Flag: Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jingle_Bombs View Post
    Well really the lesson here is that disenfranchised people can act like idiots out of spite.
    How are they acting like idiots?

    They fled their country to avoid communist oppression, I can't blame them for wishing things turned out different.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Vietnamese Heritage and Freedom Flag: Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    How are they acting like idiots?

    They fled their country to avoid communist oppression, I can't blame them for wishing things turned out different.
    I think it is because they support a country that was not all that great itself, and in several aspects, worse.



  11. #11

    Default Re: Vietnamese Heritage and Freedom Flag: Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by charles the hammer View Post
    I think it is because they support a country that was not all that great itself, and in several aspects, worse.
    With these checks completed, I can pull together the various sub-totals and totals and present them in a summary fashion (lines 823 to 838). In total 3,760,000 Vietnamese probably died of political violence during over forty-two years (line 831). Some 1,250,000, or over 33 percent of them were murdered. This does not count Laotians and Cambodians killed by Vietnamese governments, virtually all by Hanoi. When these are added and those Vietnamese killed by foreigners subtracted, the total democide by Vietnamese is 1,760,000 people (line 838).
    Whatever. South Vietnam might have been corrupt, but no one does murder like communists.

    http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP6.HTM
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Vietnamese Heritage and Freedom Flag: Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    Whatever. South Vietnam might have been corrupt, but no one does murder like communists.
    Calling South Vietnam "corrupt" is akin to calling North Korea "somewhat repressive".

  13. #13
    MAXlMUS's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Vietnamese Heritage and Freedom Flag: Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    Whatever. South Vietnam might have been corrupt, but no one does murder like communists.

    http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP6.HTM
    uh huh


  14. #14

    Default Re: Vietnamese Heritage and Freedom Flag: Really?

    Hey, I didn't write the article, just quoted it. Officially, it is communist, it's just their own unique brand of communism, that mixes good old fashioned one-party domination with a penchant for the open market.


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  15. #15

    Default Re: Vietnamese Heritage and Freedom Flag: Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by GreyFox View Post
    Hey, I didn't write the article, just quoted it.
    Hence why I said "like The Economist has done".

    Quote Originally Posted by GreyFox View Post
    Officially, it is communist, it's just their own unique brand of communism, that mixes good old fashioned one-party domination with a penchant for the open market.
    Again, this is like saying, "It is democratic, it's just their own unique brand of democracy, where there are no elections and the people are ruled by a dictator". Market economics is anathema to Communism. Rather, it would be more accurate to describe Vietnam as being "Authoritarian Socialist".

  16. #16
    Jingles's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Vietnamese Heritage and Freedom Flag: Really?

    Yeah but they're ing stupid if they wish the South had won instead.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Vietnamese Heritage and Freedom Flag: Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jingle_Bombs View Post
    Yeah but they're ing stupid if they wish the South had won instead.
    Yeah, look at those poor, lazy South Korean bums. Their northern brothers are faring much better.

  18. #18
    Jingles's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Vietnamese Heritage and Freedom Flag: Really?

    OH NOES.

    APPARENTLY I'M MEANT TO CARE.

    Seriously, it's like Cuban exiles that think Batista was awesome.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Vietnamese Heritage and Freedom Flag: Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Vwagen View Post
    OH NOES.

    APPARENTLY I'M MEANT TO CARE.

    Seriously, it's like Cuban exiles that think Batista was awesome.

    Since when the were you the spokesman for the Cuban-exiles here in the U.S.A ?

    As a Cuban i will speak for myself and tell what I've heard from those around me.

    First, NOBODY likes Batista but they do reflect that he passed some landmark socialistic reforms during the 40's. Next, we despise almost as much as "la barba" because his incompetence led to the minority of communists to take over our Land.
    Last edited by Nikos; October 10, 2010 at 09:58 PM.


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  20. #20
    Jingles's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Vietnamese Heritage and Freedom Flag: Really?

    I'm pretty sure the only reason they still parade around Ho Chi Minh's corpse is so that they retain some sort of legitimacy in the eyes of the public.

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