Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 28

Thread: IRA vs Muslim and the terrorist act

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default IRA vs Muslim and the terrorist act

    By Sabbia Hanif

    Terrorism is not new to Britain: its past is marked by IRA threats, riots and bombings. Nor does this problem belong to a remote past. Relatively recent attacks, for example the IRA’s failed attempt to kill PM Mrs Thatcher (a bomb at Brighton’s Grand Hotel during the Tory party conference in 1984) and also the 3,000lb IRA bomb-explosion in Manchester on 15 June 1996, which injured more than 200 people, are proof of that. In the eighteen months before September 2001 eight bombs went off on the British mainland, planted by the Real IRA. Yet the British government has decided that terrorism is a new problem, and introduced the Anti-Terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001 (ATCSA) in reaction to September 2001.

    Britain’s easily recognised problems do not receive attention from security forces as Muslims at large do because of this Act. Even the Mujahedin-e Khalq Organization (MKO) , an Iranian nationalist group that is proscribed under the Terrorism Act 2000, gets more consideration. In June ten members of the MKO set fire to themselves in protest against raids on it at various sites in Paris. Yet the MKO is monitored by ordinary police at their demonstrations, whereas respected human-rights groups such as the Islamic Human Rights Commission (IHRC) get the anti-terrorism police at theirs. The reason is clearly Islamophobia: a prejudice imbedded in the government’s policies which reflects hatred of Muslims, and violates human rights.

    The Anti-Terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001 has been condemned by human-rights groups and lawyers for violating the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR). Why, then, has this issue not had the widespread coverage in the media that it deserves? One reason is that it mostly affects only one section of the citizenry: the Muslim minority. The Act followed the Terrorism Act 2000, which was also heavily criticised. As a result of ATCSA’s provisions, there is widespread denial of human rights that are acknowledged worldwide.

    ATCSA is presumably intended to protect people’s liberty and lives, and make Britain secure, yet paradoxically, by taking away civil liberties, the Act itself does exactly the opposite. It gives fewer rights to those merely suspected of terrorist offences, than to others charged under the criminal law.

    Lawyers argue that the new provisions mean that the presumption of innocence does not apply to suspects; they are assumed guilty and have to prove their innocence. Thus this Act, according to Mudassar Arani, a solicitor who deals with anti-terrorism cases, "breaches EU Human Rights [article 5], and there is also denial to lawyers, fair trial for non-UK residents, and with no restriction for the press". She went on to say that "heavy reporting [of cases] means there is a pre-judgment even in the jury, which only increases the chance of a wrongful conviction." Loaded reportage was recently seen in the demonisation of Abu Hamza, who, despite not being convicted or charged with any crime, has been called the local bin Ladin by media and politicians alike. Arani sees him as a scapegoat. "They couldn’t capture Bin Laden and settled for a look alike... This is not acceptable."

    The roots of the problems with this Act lie partly with the suspect-profile that this legislation is based on, and the grounds for suspicion, which are so outrageous that they prove the official and popular paranoia.

    One of the most ridiculous grounds for suspicion that Arani has come across is of an elderly man, a law-abiding British citizen, who had recently suffered a heart attack that had affected his speech. He was driving home, and was stopped by the police, questioned and interrogated: his only ‘crime’ was that he had a beard. He was so traumatized, finding it difficult to speak, that he broke down in tears. Such cases are not unusual. Another man, a Muslim van-driver, was held by police at gunpoint at night because of the style of his Muslim attire.

    Other clients of Arani’s include four men who were on their way to the mosque to pray on a Friday, when they found themselves surrounded by armed policemen, and ordered to put their "hands up". They complied, yet the police set their dogs on the men. The men fell flat on the ground. The dogs returned to the police officers, who deliberately set the dogs on the men again. The dogs bit the men’s legs until they were ordered off.

    When taken to the police station, the men received no immediate medical aid. They asked for a first-aid kit, cleaned their own wounds and tried to cover the tears with plasters. Eventually the doctor on call at the police station examined them and said that their injuries were so serious that he could not treat them. The men were taken to hospital, where their injuries were stitched. They were detained for 36 hours, then released without charge. Surely the increase in these sorts of cases shows how the Acts have created mistrust and alienation, and can only create more difficulties for community relations. Both the 2000 and 2001 Acts increase non-Muslims’ mistrust of Muslims, especially those Muslims wearing hijab, sporting a beard or wearing distinctive clothes, as well as Muslims’ mistrust of non-Muslims.

    According to Arani, "Many arrests have been made, where mere dress code identifies you as a suspect". Yet the attacks of September 2001, in reaction to which this act was passed, were allegedly perpetrated by men who were clean shaven, had girlfriends, and had been seen at bars. They had facilities like several identities, passports, finances, and were well organized, yet the British (and American) security forces are trying to fight such people by searching mosques, targeting imams with long beards, and harassing asylum-seekers (who often have no passport, let alone several). Such profiling ignores the fact that the vast majority of Muslims abhor terrorism anywhere.

    This profiling is only proof that Islamophobia is an undercurrent of governmental policy. The Islamophobia handed down in legislation by the government seeps into all dealings with Muslims. This is no exaggeration: the new search powers have lead to unprecedented raids on mosques; the police have even asked banks to monitor mosques’ accounts. Cases such as that of a London branch that referred a mosque cheque of £30,000 for a business contractor to the police are not rare.

    Pre 9 /11 precedents

    According to the Terrorism Act 2000, section 57, "A person commits an offence if he possesses an article in circumstances which give rise to a reasonable suspicion that his possession is for a purpose connected with the commission, preparation or instigation of an act of terrorism". This has led to ludicrous arrests. Suleyman Zain-ul-abidin was the first victim: he was detained for over 10 months on the suspicion of offering weapons-training over the Internet. The main evidence against him was a few newspaper reports about Usama bin Ladin in his possession. He was cleared of terrorist charges in August 2002, and told the jury that he was a "trophy" and "scapegoat" for September 11.

    Freedom of speech is also affected by this act. Muslim groups that are struggling to free their lands are labelled terrorists instead of freedom-fighters, meaning that the police have enough grounds for suspicion to arrest one just for verbal support. This fear of expressing an opinion has prevented Muslims from even challenging the Acts. It seems that Muslims are either too afraid of being labelled as "supporting terrorists", or have accepted the line that the Acts are necessary because there is a state of emergency.

    Legislating against Muslims: Britain leads the way

    The Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 strips any British citizen with dual nationality of UK nationality if he or she is thought to be a threat to British interests. This has left British residents with dual nationalities insecure and vulnerable. It does not combat terrorism, as the guilty are not punished and the innocent not cleared by trial. Many Muslims hold dual nationality, so this penalises them further and erodes their supposed equality before the law.

    Furthermore a new bilateral extradition treaty, signed in March with the US by David Blunkett, the home secretary, leaves everyone vulnerable to immediate extradition without recourse to British courts. The determining factor in the way this treaty affects British nationals is the criteria for suspicion used by the US government. The US is targeting anyone even vaguely Muslim, so Muslims are once more victims of uncontrolled hatred and prejudice.

    Under the provisions of the new treaty, in effect those "suspected" are extradited to the US. Before, the suspect could challenge such extradition in court; now it is up to the US to list who they want and the suspect must appeal against the home secretary’s decision. The certification is based on secret information which is not disclosed to the detainees and which therefore cannot be challenged by them or their lawyers. Had this treaty been in force at the hearing of the Algerian pilot Lotfi Raissi (arrested on September 21, 2001), he would have been extradited, and might have faced the death penalty.

    Raissi was detained for five months in Belmarsh high security prison, and then acquitted when a judge ruled that there was no evidence whatsoever to connect him with terrorism. Amnesty International’s report denounced his conditions of detention; he had been held in "high security" in Belmarsh, south east London, and has spoken about his five-and-a-half month "living nightmare". AI said that: "The US authorities’ reasons for seeking Lotfi’s extradition included the fact that his identity and profession fit a certain profile: an Algerian man and a Muslim, a pilot and a flight instructor in the USA." Raissi could potentially be put through worse ordeals still because of this new treaty. The treaty is retrospective, and people who have already proved their innocence in court can be extradited on the same or similar charges.

    What future for Muslims in Britain?

    Arani and other solicitors are very worried about Muslims, and that "innocent people are being handed... [to] the mercy of the US"; they are suspicious of US justice. Osama Daneshyar, a barrister, has commented that "the US has no respect for human rights and is uncivilized". The US has not so far been able to punish the perpetrators of September 2001, and it is time that someone explained to Bush that the hijackers are dead, that they too were killed. The US is still trying to take vengeance, and in its rage anyone vaguely fitting the profile will do. Arani expects the new laws to lead to "gross miscarriages of justice", because this system does not protect the individual nor allow the charge to be challenged in court, which was some sort of safety-net before.

    The main argument of human-rights campaigners and lawyers alike is that there is no real problem that needs new legislation; the criminal law is sufficient. Massoud Shadjareh, chairman of IHRC, believes that we need to "fight the causes of terrorism, and go and look deeper than just rhetoric"; and he comments that "No society can afford to demonize a minority... Where action is necessary we need to use the existing criminal justice provisions."

    Lawyers and human-rights activists agree that the criminal legislation was sufficient, and that the 2000 and 2001 Acts have led to alienation and disenfranchisement of Muslims, so that being a Muslim means being a potential suspect, and "suspicion" has created a climate of mistrust. The only thing these members of the Muslim community disagree about is who the real beneficiaries of this Act are. Answers to this question include far-right groups such as the BNP (who are demonising Muslims to serve their racist agenda), groups like the MKO (who enjoy relative freedom because they are "fighting Islam"), and David Blunkett, who, under the pretence of doing something about terrorism, is helping the government to justify the wars on Afghanistan, Iraq, and probably other Muslim countries soon.

    There is also discussion about who is losing most as a result of these Acts: the British taxpayer (because legal expenses are mounting) or the Muslim community. Whatever the answer, the Muslim community is being victimized, and ATSCA affects their civil liberties and political rights. Can there be any justification for legislation that is in effect almost` creating Muslim concentration-camps, where non-UK nationals are held indefinitely without trial or charge? According to one report, thirteen suspects are being held at Belmarsh high security prison in London under the 2001 Act.

    Some of these detainees have been in custody without charge for 18 months. Conditions at Belmarsh are notorious. In May a Muslim woman, Parveen Sharif from Derby, was charged with aiding terrorism: i.e. failure to disclose information about acts of terrorism. The main evidence against her was that she is the sister of Omar Khan Sharif, one of the alleged British suicide-bombers. She was held at Belmarsh prison, which is an all-male high security prison in South London, where she was put into a special secure unit (SSU), held in solitary confinement for six days without natural light, and denied physical exercise.

    When asked what the legislators have failed to take into account when drawing up the Act, Osama Daneshyar replied: "The legislators have failed to take into account that Britain is a democracy", where everyone is supposedly equal. Massoud Shadjareh points out that by allowing extradition of "suspects" to the US, where they face the death penalty, the treaty contradicts British values. So the Act fails to measure up, not only legally but because of its implications. It has encouraged the media’s demonisation of Muslims, resulting in increased hostility to the Muslim community, so assumptions have been regurgitated, stereotypes have been reinforced, and Islamophobia goes unchallenged.

    [Sabbia Hanif has just completed an internship at the Islamic Human Rights Commission, London, UK.]
    http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/m...-terrorlaw.htm
    Last edited by Denny Crane!; December 15, 2005 at 05:47 PM. Reason: Inappropriate title

  2. #2
    Marshal Qin's Avatar Bow to ME!!!
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Back home for now
    Posts
    2,215

    Default

    From this in the UK and other legislation in the US and Australia that I know of or have heard about it would appear that we have lost. Our way of life has been changed and our values eroded.

    imo the score so far is:

    Radical Islam 4 (WTC, Iraq, Erosion of western values, culture of fear)
    The West 1 (Removal of the Taliban)
    Exotic Slave - Spook 153, Barbarian Turncoat - Drugpimp, Catamite - Invoker 47
    Drunken Uncle - Wicked, Priest of Jupiter - Guderian


    Under the patronage of El-Sib Why? ...... Because Siblesz sent me
    Proud member of the Australian-New Zealand Beer Appreciation Society (ANZBAS?)

  3. #3

    Default

    if my family hadn't left County Cork in Ireland all those years ago i probably would be in the IRA right now
    im a hard liner/radical/wee bit to religious like that
    The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be used until they try and take it away.
    Staff Officer of Corporal_Hicks in the Legion of Rahl
    Commanding Katrina, Crimson Scythe, drak10687 and Leonidas the Lion

  4. #4
    eldaran's Avatar Speshul
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    The United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,143

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mudd The Crazy
    if my family hadn't left County Cork in Ireland all those years ago i probably would be in the IRA right now
    im a hard liner/radical/wee bit to religious like that
    Though not exactly something to be proud of...the IRA are nothing but terrorists.



    Under the patronage of the original and the best: Wild Bill Kelso

  5. #5
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default

    The interesting point I thought was that the IRA committed far more terror offences than any islamic group in the UK, yet we never legislated like we do now. Because their Islamic? Seems to be.

    The other interesting point was not raised in the article but worth noting, the IRA got a huge amount of support from certain parts of America. It was only after sep11 that the qhitehouse stopped meeting with people linked to them. Ergo terrorism ok so long as its not against your own country or if it is it damn well better be a god fearing westerner.

  6. #6
    Nihil's Avatar Annihilationist
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Posts
    2,221

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cowen70
    The interesting point I thought was that the IRA committed far more terror offences than any islamic group in the UK, yet we never legislated like we do now. Because their Islamic? Seems to be.
    Partly, but the real reason is that the neocons say so. Our entire culture is being warped by their paranoiac propaganda. Britain could tell the American government a lot about terrorism and the practicalities of countering it, but sadly, they don't want to hear it because it goes against their plans. It's not about the reality of terrorism, it's about the value of propaganda in creating a climate of capitulation and passivity.

    Government agencies would much rather have all these new powers they're getting than actually do anything about the terrorists, so terrorism is good news for them. Ditto with right-wing fundamentalist types who thrive on the climate of nutty paranoia that terrorism-obsession creates. The terror gravy train has meant boom-time for everybody who wants to destroy people's rights and freedoms.

    Our way of life has been changed and our values eroded.
    Yes indeed. And why would the people responsible ever want rid of terrorsim now that things are going so well? You don't bite the hand that feeds.

    if my family hadn't left County Cork in Ireland all those years ago i probably would be in the IRA right now
    im a hard liner/radical/wee bit to religious like that
    No offence mate, but speaking as an Irishman, it's no wonder they call you Mudd the Crazy...
    Ex Nihilo, Nihil Fit.
    Acting Paterfamilias of House Rububula
    Former Patron of the retired Atheist Peace
    Current Lineup: Jesus The Inane, PacSubCom, Last Roman, Evariste, I Have a Clever Name, Gabriella26, Markas and Katrina

  7. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cowen70
    The interesting point I thought was that the IRA committed far more terror offences than any islamic group in the UK, yet we never legislated like we do now. Because their Islamic? Seems to be.

    The other interesting point was not raised in the article but worth noting, the IRA got a huge amount of support from certain parts of America. It was only after sep11 that the qhitehouse stopped meeting with people linked to them. Ergo terrorism ok so long as its not against your own country or if it is it damn well better be a god fearing westerner.
    Thats exactly why the IRA was never treated with half as much "preperation" on the part of britain as the current muslim terrorists.

    Its not becuase the New terrorists are muslim but becuase the IRA was only ever our problem, Americans as youve rightly pointed out even "sponsored" the IRA.

    Secondly would be that the IRA never flew planes into 10 downing street or the stock exchange etc... their attacks where more numerous but less effective (in a body count scale).

    In that i would like to draw some parralles, Britains basicly sorted the whole IRA mess out, no attacks, ceasefire, agreement to disarm etc...

    The americans got hit with 911 and had a knee jerk reaction to go invading anybody who even looked like they might have known the talliban, rightly or wrongly we followed them.


    The americans (and us funnily enough) could learn from our dealings with the IRA and treat the new extremists the same.

  8. #8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by eldaran
    Though not exactly something to be proud of...the IRA are nothing but terrorists.
    i know but my family is very, very hard line on this issue
    if i was brought up in that environment in Ireland instead of a bajillion miles away in NW USA i probably would. its a fact
    The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be used until they try and take it away.
    Staff Officer of Corporal_Hicks in the Legion of Rahl
    Commanding Katrina, Crimson Scythe, drak10687 and Leonidas the Lion

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshal Qin
    From this in the UK and other legislation in the US and Australia that I know of or have heard about it would appear that we have lost. Our way of life has been changed and our values eroded.

    imo the score so far is:

    Radical Islam 4 (WTC, Iraq, Erosion of western values, culture of fear)
    The West 1 (Removal of the Taliban)
    rofl its so true. I'm just waiting for the end of the world so I can get my Mad Max car, grow a mohawk, and terrorize oil derricks with my biker gang and megaphone.
    Swear filters are for sites run by immature children.

  10. #10
    sephodwyrm's Avatar Praefectus
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Taiwan
    Posts
    6,757

    Default

    Both of them are damaging to humanity. I would simply call them terrorists. No further adjectives are needed...
    Older guy on TWC.
    Done with National Service. NOT patriotic. MORE realist. Just gimme cash.
    Dishing out cheap shots since 2006.

  11. #11
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sephodwyrm
    Both of them are damaging to humanity. I would simply call them terrorists. No further adjectives are needed...
    Seph and rolanbeck.

    Whole point of thread is not about comparing one terrorist group to the other it is about comparing governments responses to islamic terror compared to domestic terror. There is the massive difference.

  12. #12
    imb39's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Patrician Citizen Administrator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    20,872

    Default

    I do find it bizarre that this Labour government needed to push through (or try to push through) legislation that was not necessary when the IRA was at its height in the eighties. Indeed, Labour Home Secretaries often propose more restricitive legislation that Conservatives (even though the worst Home Secretary recently was Michael Howard, the ones since (all Labour) have been terrible).

    I wish we would go to first basics and learn from our time in NI. The IRA was on its knees in the early 70's then we ruined everything with internment. What does the Labour government propose in response to terrorism now? Internment (well, essentially internment). Ridiculous!

    The authorities have enough power at their disposal, they know what to do but have become so focussed on technology that they've neglected the best way of dealing with terrorism - informants. This might have been rectified, I don't know. At the end of the day, the ONLY way to defeat terrorism is to cut away support - the battle for hearts and minds should be our battle ground. Anything else will not work. It has never worked.

    Marshall Quin has noted the correct scoreline.

  13. #13
    sephodwyrm's Avatar Praefectus
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Taiwan
    Posts
    6,757

    Default

    Which I think the government response should be equal on both cases.

    I have to agree with cowen70 that the response to Islamic Terrorism is going way out of control, and people now tend to equate Muslims with terrorists.

    What do you propose to change this problem?
    Older guy on TWC.
    Done with National Service. NOT patriotic. MORE realist. Just gimme cash.
    Dishing out cheap shots since 2006.

  14. #14
    imb39's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Patrician Citizen Administrator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    20,872

    Default

    What do I propose? Well, like I said in my previous post - look back to the lessons learnt from the IRA.

    sephodwyrm, I know this might have been a rhetorical question, but I thought I would give it an answer!

  15. #15
    imb39's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Patrician Citizen Administrator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    20,872

    Default

    May I remind you of Brighton...?

  16. #16
    imb39's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Patrician Citizen Administrator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    20,872

    Default

    The main difference between Islamic terrorists and the IRA is that some of the Islamic ones want the complete destruction of the West. The IRA's aims were at least plausible in certain circumstances.

    The two are equally loathesome in my estimation. I would add ETA and all the other terrorists in the world.

  17. #17

    Default

    Terrorism will never end. I don't see why George W. Bush is calling this war 'A War against Terrorism'. So far, I think the extremists are winning. They are exploiting the US's faults, and the leading of a false war, which will spur more people to their cause, which will eventually lead the US to pull out due to massive casualties, which, hopefully, will not happen...

  18. #18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by masteradnin
    Terrorism will never end. I don't see why George W. Bush is calling this war 'A War against Terrorism'. So far, I think the extremists are winning. They are exploiting the US's faults, and the leading of a false war, which will spur more people to their cause, which will eventually lead the US to pull out due to massive casualties, which, hopefully, will not happen...
    Terrorism has been around for ages and exists in all culture perpetually. Saying you can win a war on terrorism is the same as flat out lying.

    Any country that has a disenchanted, or opressed minority will have terrorists. Any country that has political extremists or sepratists will have terrorists. Any dictatorship will have terrorists. This exists in ALL countries so unless they plan on invading every country on the face of the earth and hunt down every little person a war on terrorism cannot be won. I can think of several countries that have their own terrorist groups associated with them

    Burma: radical christian terrorists - formerly God's Army my favorite terrorist group ever simply because of their "story".
    Russia: terrorists of every kind, ex-military, seperatists, Mafia, etc.
    UK/Ireland: IRA and foreign terrorists. Pretty much the same as the US.
    US: eco-terrorists(funny), ultra-right terrorists, foreign terrorists of all kinds
    India: islamic terrorists, and other religious extremists
    Japan: Extremist buddist terrorists, and a few religious cult terrorists. They have a LOT of screwed up groups.
    South America: all kinds of red menace terrorists and drug trafficers that use terrorist tactics
    China: china keeps them secret mostly... islamic terrorists confirmed for sure though and probably others.
    Pakistan: Christian terrorists
    Indonesia: islamic terrorists
    Italy: mafia that uses terrorist tactics at times, mostly wiped out from what I hear though. In the 90s they killed a LOT of people.
    Spain: the basque seperatists.
    Puerto Rico: anti-US seperatists, small numbers
    Any Middle Eastern country: Formerly Communist funded terrorists, islamic terrorists, etc. Before Isreal was founded their were jewish terrorists. Also before that their were arab terrorists that attacked the Ottomans (Lawrence of Arabia style).
    Africa: chaos of all kinds in a few countries and as a result many terrorists. Christian, reds, islamic, etc.
    Philipines: Islamic terrorists that have existed for CENTURIES.
    Laos: minority tribal terrorists that we allied with during the vietnam war to fight the commies.


    Their is a site I used to have that listed all the worlds known terrorists groups and their goals. They exist in all countries and have many various goals and are of many various groups. People thinking we can win a war on terrorism simply dont realize this. The "war" is more likely a war on Al Qaida if anything. They are the only ones with money to do extravagent attacks, if that money still exists. Anti-Russian terrorists though are equally proficient, but they dont have to leave the country to attack it. Same with terrorists that are in a lot of other foreign countries. ESPECIALLY Mafia associated groups and groups that use drugs for profit.

    http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/ a small outdated list of terrorist groups. Some dont exist anymore, like God's Army plus they dont have newer ones on their. Some of these groups have VERY creative names, like an Everquest guild or something.
    One that amuses me: Vigorous Burmese Student Warriors
    Swear filters are for sites run by immature children.

  19. #19
    Rolanbek's Avatar Malevolent Revenent
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    limbo, in between here and there
    Posts
    1,432

    Default

    I repeat,

    Bleh

    Response is different as threat is different.

    PIRA (please note the IRA has been non-existant since 1969) has stated aims that could be acheived with negotitiation and compromise. It is not unrealistic to expect an independant government in Nothern Ireland within the next 50 years. PIRA were primarily a criminal organisation, (racketeering, drugs, etc) these activities still occur under the auspicses the same people however without the terrorist rhetoric to give them credability.

    The IRA is most of is recent forms would have withered and died if not for the vast amount of cash injected by american donors.

    Compare now to the current batch of islamic terrorists.

    Hardly any central organisation other than a figurehead, no coherent aims, cell based structure whocih for the most part means that the majority of the people who proclaim to be members of groups do not 'report in to supperiors' or are 'card carrying members' and have no clue as to what is going on.

    Suicide bombers are not professional terrorists, they are impressionable people doing somthing that seem irrational to us but means that the professional members of the groups who drive policey seldom now need to get their hands dirty. Mainly because it is largly irrelevent to them who is workking for them, as they couldn't care less. Look at the scramble to claim resposibility at each new explosion.

    Crimininals with political aspirations vs Reactionary idealists manipulated by the incoherant.

    Bleh

    You can only declare war on another country, (or your own). Anyone who speaks of a 'War on Terror' needs a good dictionary.

    Any person or group who uses violence or the threat of violence to instill fear in the population is commiting a terrorist act. All government ultimately rule by fear, and violence or the threat of violence.

    Do the maths.

    You wanted this can of worms opened, I say:

    It you will eventually lose your way of life and the values you hold dear unless you are prepared the stand up and make a difference by whatever means neccessary, that will make you somebody's Terrorist. Appeasment, apathy and avoidence simply make you and easier target for someone else.

    A word from your leaders (wherever you may live)

    Be silent, Obey, Consume, Die

    R
    November 06, 2006 02:10 PM If I knew you were going to populate the Curia with cheapshots, you never would have gotten promoted. - Anon

    Love mail from when Rep came with daggers to stab you...
    Join the Curia, loudmouths spewing bile for your entertainment.
    Contents:Sirloin of deceased Equine, your choice of hot or cold revenge, All served on a bed of barrel shavings. may contain nuts

  20. #20
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolanbek
    I repeat,

    Bleh

    Response is different as threat is different.R
    You mean of course that the islamic threat is less. Surely you must since the IRA have caused more terror than the islamic threat. No islamic source has come close to assasinating the PM or attacking MI5 or parliment.

    Do not confuse supposed threat with actual history, I prefer only to deal in fact not political rhetoric.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolanbek
    PIRA (please note the IRA has been non-existant since 1969) has stated aims that could be acheived with negotitiation and compromise. It is not unrealistic to expect an independant government in Nothern Ireland within the next 50 years. PIRA were primarily a criminal organisation, (racketeering, drugs, etc) these activities still occur under the auspicses the same people however without the terrorist rhetoric to give them credability.R

    PIRA, IRA Potatoe-Patotoe. There are many Islamic terrorist organisations that could achieve exactly what the IRA has acheived in years to come. I am thinking chechnya rebels and tamil tigers as a couple I am sure I could name more when I am not Nissed as a pewt. The criminal activities started as a means to an end and eventually became a proper criminal organisation just like any other terrorist group. There is no credible difference here.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rolanbek
    The IRA is most of is recent forms would have withered and died if not for the vast amount of cash injected by american donors.R
    Spoken by someone who has no knowledge of Ireland. In certain parts of Ireland the IRA have incredible influence. They pervade all elements of society and the culture clash crosses religeon as well as politics in parts, I know my family is from Ireland. Their political influence would have diminshed without funds but to leave Ireland will take centuries, their history is some minds (ideologically speaking) goes back to the 1800's and the fight against percieved opression continues. Some communities especially working class have extremely long memories trancsending generations.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rolanbek
    Compare now to the current batch of islamic terrorists.

    Hardly any central organisation other than a figurehead, no coherent aims, cell based structure whocih for the most part means that the majority of the people who proclaim to be members of groups do not 'report in to supperiors' or are 'card carrying members' and have no clue as to what is going on.R
    You can proclaim how dangerous these people are all you like the fact is they have not perpetrated as much terrorism as the IRA and therefore do not deserve the legislation. They have not come anywhere near the amount of threat posed to national security as the IRA. FACT.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rolanbek
    Suicide bombers are not professional terrorists, they are impressionable people doing somthing that seem irrational to us but means that the professional members of the groups who drive policey seldom now need to get their hands dirty. Mainly because it is largly irrelevent to them who is workking for them, as they couldn't care less. Look at the scramble to claim resposibility at each new explosion.

    Crimininals with political aspirations vs Reactionary idealists manipulated by the incoherant.R
    Only the top level members in the IRA have any real political motivation the rest are as manipulated as anyone.

    Political aspirations to the islamic mind can be any number of western influences on the islamic world and all have a reasonably high probability of success.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolanbek
    Bleh

    You can only declare war on another country, (or your own). Anyone who speaks of a 'War on Terror' needs a good dictionary.

    Any person or group who uses violence or the threat of violence to instill fear in the population is commiting a terrorist act. All government ultimately rule by fear, and violence or the threat of violence.

    Do the maths.

    You wanted this can of worms opened, I say:

    It you will eventually lose your way of life and the values you hold dear unless you are prepared the stand up and make a difference by whatever means neccessary, that will make you somebody's Terrorist. Appeasment, apathy and avoidence simply make you and easier target for someone else.

    A word from your leaders (wherever you may live)

    Be silent, Obey, Consume, Die

    R
    I'm sorry I fail to see the relevance of the last piece.

    Please leave BLEH out of your posts.

    Peter

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •