US Education Solution: Remove Grade Levels

[Ramashan]

Since Mathias asked me to expand on idea I had in another thread:

Recently there has been this huge move in the US to try and fix the failing educational system. Most of the solutions revolve around teacher accountability through student testing and being able to fire teachers if they score low on value added student assessments.

I think these assessments can lead to more problems in that the teachers are going to begin cramming information down their students throats and also to get failing students out of the classroom. Some people even feel that enlarging class sizes can help with some of the costs, especially since there's no statistics that show that class size does any thing to student performance. I think that the issue is a trifecta one; Teacher, Culture, and Student/Parent

To me, a huge issue in education, is the age old structure of the system itself. And by doing one change, we can help teachers meet and do better on their assessments, make class sizes a bit larger perhaps, and more importantly, help the students learn better. And this idea is to just get rid of grade levels after 5th grade.

I choose 5th grade because the studies I've seen show that the US completes quite well from 1st to 4th grade. Then after 5th grade the US performance drops like a stone. Why? I think its because that when major development hurdle occurs in kids that makes them start spreading out intellectually. Who knows what the reasons are; environment, family, genetics, some sort of chemical issue, who knows. But, we all know that people just get things better than others as they go through middle and high school. Some get math better, some science, some english, etc etc.

But we have a system that just takes all these people and shoves them through the system at the same rate. Also, this creates a culture where parents don't want to see their students left back, and students who don't get it feel embarrassed to admit it. So, they pass right along and then eventually they got to 10th, 11th, or even 12th grade and they are failing and perhaps holding others back or conversely, the class might be too low of level for them, and their board, and can become disruptive.

And its the disruption by both those who are board and those who simply need too much help to keep up that make a teachers job even more difficult.

The idea of removing grade levels, I believe, solves this. Students just advance in different subjects as they prove, through testing, that they know the material to a sufficient degree, lets say a C+ or you can go to B- which ever, and if they don't get it the first time, well then they repeat it till they do. This ensures that your students understand the material.

The obvious downside is time. Do you just let them stay in public school till they pass? Or do you cut off at 18 or 20 and make them pay for their education after that? This is something each district would have to decide. Another goes into the culture leg of the educational problem trifecta. Parents don't want to see their students held back, its better to blame the teachers, and neither students nor parents want to see their friends moving to higher levels while their not. Its the whole, "Think of the emotional impact on the kid" argument. Well, you know what? A: Life isn't fair & B: The kids wont care if you don't and that's were cultural change comes in.

I don't know, I've given this a lot of thought and believe it is a very doable and logical solution to a portion of the educational problems in the US. I've even talked to many teachers about this who saw the merit of it.

What do you think? Am I smoking a pipe and living on a pink cloud here thinking this would work? What are some factors I'm not considering here?

[Yosemite]

make them study at home, like online classes

khan academy is a great thing

[Captain Jin]

A big reason kids struggle in middle school and high school, in my opinion, is that is when they are introduced to the brutal social hierarchy that shows up in middle school. The struggle for popularity and being 'cool' takes precedence over a good education. Kids are more exposed to a lot more outside distractions and corruptors once they reach middle school from drugs, alcohol and sex to gangs or different little social groups that may not be conducive to learning. Not to mention getting your car at 16, which personally led to the complete destruction of my own academic career. There's a lot more factors than the grade system I think when it comes to the latter portion of ones climb through the academic ladder.

[Theseus1234]

A big reason kids struggle in middle school and high school, in my opinion, is that is when they are introduced to the brutal social hierarchy that shows up in middle school. The struggle for popularity and being 'cool' takes precedence over a good education. Kids are more exposed to a lot more outside distractions and corruptors once they reach middle school from drugs, alcohol and sex to gangs or different little social groups that may not be conducive to learning. Not to mention getting your car at 16, which personally led to the complete destruction of my own academic career. There's a lot more factors than the grade system I think when it comes to the latter portion of ones climb through the academic ladder.

This. I feel like the main problem with the education system is social pressure and the fact that kids consider learning and education to be "not cool".

I think the United States should focus more on involving parents in the education in their children. I think that a lot of the problems of our education system is relative parent indifference. If the parents get involved with their child's education, help them study, become knowledgeable about their child's educational shortcomings and then help their children to succeed. I think perhaps if we create incentives for child success with tax-breaks and the like we can get parents more involve in a child's education. The problem with this of course would then be parent's pressuring teachers to give their children good grades but I think that is a realitvely easy problem to solve. Also tax breaks could be provided for every honors and ap course a child takes with more breaks offered when children get 4's or 5's on their AP tests and when kids get over 2000's on the SAT and over 30 on the ACT. That would ease pressure a bit.

Some kids just aren't intelligent, though.

[Georgy Zhukov]

Some kids just aren't intelligent, though.

Success in school doesn't require pure "intelligence." I mean some people are better then others naturally at school, but to be successful in school all it takes is hard work and dedication to improve yourself. Of course there are some people with learning disabilities like ADD and dyslexia but hell even their improvement can be incentivized.

[Theseus1234]

Success in school doesn't require pure "intelligence." I mean some people are better then others naturally at school, but to be successful in school all it takes is hard work and dedication to improve yourself. Of course there are some people with learning disabilities like ADD and dyslexia but hell even their improvement can be incentivized.

Sorry I should rephrase. Some kids don't have the same capacity of understanding and retaining information as others. No specific learning disability is required. I am a complete failure in English and the arts but am proficient in math and science. If it was the other way around, why should my parents be punished for my predisposition to a certain subject or field? What you proposed would essentially weed out the artist and the musician in favor of the writer and the scientist. Hell, you'd actually be socially selecting for good test takers (since we all know that the ACT and the SAT are hardly good measures of intelligence).

[Georgy Zhukov]

Sorry I should rephrase. Some kids don't have the same capacity of understanding and retaining information as others. No specific learning disability is required. I am a complete failure in English and the arts but am proficient in math and science. If it was the other way around, why should my parents be punished for my predisposition to a certain subject or field? What you proposed would essentially weed out the artist and the musician in favor of the writer and the scientist. Hell, you'd actually be socially selecting for good test takers (since we all know that the ACT and the SAT are hardly good measures of intelligence).

Just because you are particularly disposed to learn one subject does not mean you cant work to become proficient in a different field. It might be more difficult for you then somebody who is more inclinated but its not a "its impossible for me to learn." Knowledge, just like a skill, can be improved if you work at it. And I agree that the ACT/SAT are not good measures of intelligence but (for the majority) they require tenacity and hard work to squire hard scores.

And why would I be weeding out the artist and the musician? In fact I think music and proficency in the art is a desirable skill and should be cultivated early. However in my experience at least, vitruosos, savants and rock stars are not cultivated in a public class room.

How would your parents be punished also? My idea was simply a proposal to get parents more involved with their child's education. It's not like they suddenly be slapped with a "failure" tax.

[Corvis]

Encouraging more children to try individual study is good too. For those who are actually motivated enough to get the hell out of school. Removes all the distractions and the utter exhaustion you get from a normal 7-8 hour school day. And it is optional to come in at 7 AM. I think that's a big reason kids suck at school, being forced to wake up at 6 in the morning just to get math thrown at them in an unholy hour of the day.

I think these assessments can lead to more problems in that the teachers are going to begin cramming information down their students throats and also to get failing students out of the classroom.

I can personally attest to this. In 8th grade at the end of the school year, I was failing every single class and had no possible choice but be held back from high school. School said, "Ugh, just graduate him." School systems aren't interested in getting the kids to succeed, just in getting them out of the system.

+rep btw.

[Vanoi]

I remember going from elementry school to middle school. In elementry school i always had all A's or A's and B's. then i hit middle school. Being an A+student went away forever. I am not even sure if i ever got A's and B's anymore after that. I do remmeber alot of F's D's and C's.

[Armenum]

Education should always be heavily funded by the government. US government should definitely increase very much the funding to its schools. All I can say is that the education just has to be more rigorous and demanding. If you get left behind tough luck, you should have studied more. They have to be constantly immersed in academia and competition in order to get this edge. Another thing is that US is rather low compared to other modern countries when it comes to math and science, these areas should also be accelerated, meaning more difficult concepts to be taught at a younger age in order to accomplish more.

[Corvis]

Education should always be heavily funded by the government. US government should definitely increase very much the funding to its schools. All I can say is that the education just has to be more rigorous and demanding. If you get left behind tough luck, you should have studied more. They have to be constantly immersed in academia and competition in order to get this edge. Another thing is that US is rather low compared to other modern countries when it comes to math and science, these areas should also be accelerated, meaning more difficult concepts to be taught at a younger age in order to accomplish more.

Our system is heavily funded, but local school districts mismanage funding all the damn time. California is the biggest example probably, and that sort of fiscal mismanagement spills into Nevada where districts would rather pay for brand new state-of-the-art auditoriums, school stadiums, and laptops for every student. Then they make a cut on teachers' salaries and lay off a few hundred of them because there aren't enough funds. This type of behavior happens all the way up to community colleges which are in dire need of funds to begin with.

[Armenum]

Our system is heavily funded, but local school districts mismanage funding all the damn time. California is the biggest example probably, and that sort of fiscal mismanagement spills into Nevada where districts would rather pay for brand new state-of-the-art auditoriums, school stadiums, and laptops for every student. Then they make a cut on teachers' salaries and lay off a few hundred of them because there aren't enough funds. This type of behavior happens all the way up to community colleges which are in dire need of funds to begin with.

Well definitely more money should be funnelled to teacher training, and the requirements for being a teacher should be much tougher, and made to be more competitive. Also tests, and curriculum should be made harder, and if a student cannot pass the tougher curriculum with decent marks, than they get left behind and have to try harder. Natural selection at its best

[Vanoi]

I don't think the U.S government funds shcools, i think it is up to the state. I have a retarded governor atm so education really sucks here, infact in my county alone, schools are 40 million dollars short on their budget next year.

[Georgy Zhukov]

I think the United States should focus more on involving parents in the education in their children. I think that a lot of the problems of our education system is relative parent indifference. If the parents get involved with their child's education, help them study, become knowledgeable about their child's educational shortcomings and then help their children to succeed. I think perhaps if we create incentives for child success with tax-breaks and the like we can get parents more involve in a child's education. The problem with this of course would then be parent's pressuring teachers to give their children good grades but I think that is a realitvely easy problem to solve. Also tax breaks could be provided for every honors and ap course a child takes with more breaks offered when children get 4's or 5's on their AP tests and when kids get over 2000's on the SAT and over 30 on the ACT. That would ease pressure a bit.

[Last Roman]

There are so many things ed up with our education, inside and outside the school. As stated earlier, education/learning is, even now, a lot of times seen as "uncool" or whatever the kids use nowadays. Why talk about politics/history/math when you can talk about what happened last night on Jersey Shore? Often times, it's only too late when a lot of kids realize, "oh , I should've paid attention" (and I fully include myself in that category). Other factors include, but not limited to: money (or lack thereof), parent involvement (or, again, lack thereof), the teachers, the materials available, the surroundings, or even the school building itself (I'll tell you, it's hard to pay attention in class when it's 90 degrees inside). Long answer short: there's no one single problem or solution to the US' educational failings.

[EmperorBatman999]

The solution, get rid of kids that have habits of not respecting others or being disruptive in class.

[Theseus1234]

The solution, get rid of kids that have habits of not respecting others or being disruptive in class.

More like a final solution....hehehe
Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Ramashan]

You see, I understand the social issue involved in school once you hit Middle School, thus my 5th grade pivot point on getting rid of grades. Unfortunately, I do not think that we can ever get rid of bullying and the whole classified school experience; nerds, jocks, geeks, etc etc. That is just the way things are and harkens back to a very tribal time. And if anything society, especially amongst teenagers is very primal. We are who we are. But yes, this is a major distraction from education and something I honestly did not factor in.

But, all these issues of life, and how hard it is, and class, and picking on people because of how they do, I believe that is all part of the 'cultural' leg of the education trifecta.

In St. Albans NY, the principle of the school made a rule (may have been an administrator, I don't know, I'll look into it) made a rule that a D was unacceptable, and that students who got a D had to repeat the class. It was his way of making the students held accountable, and by extension making the parents hold the kids accountable. This is not a very popular conversation anyone is having. Its all about teacher quality. But if the students aren't doing the work, there is only so far teacher quality can go.

By eliminating grade levels, you remove some, not all, social stigmas with being left back, and allow students, like Theseaus123 to excel in the areas they are good at and let them move along a little slower in the areas they don't.

Someone mentioned more rigorous teacher training. Right now it is as rigorous as any other career except for being a doctor. And even that is not true in some districts where they require the teacher to do resident work. Many teachers get pay incentives for getting masters degrees and they go through constant job training. There is a lot out there. But yes, some teachers, like in any profession, simply phone it in for the paycheck.

Thing is, if you make teaching more rigorous, and more demanding, without increasing the pay or the prestige, then who the heck is going to want to go into it? Especially HS, its a brutal career, especially if your young. I freely admit that we made the young English teacher in my HS cry on several occasions because we could.

Getting rid of grade levels is only part of the solution, I think. Changing the culture of how we look at education is also a big issue.

[Last Roman]

I think the moral of this thread is: teenagers are stupid a-holes.

[Corvis]

Usually, but punishing any student who doesn't receive an arbitrary grade score shouldn't be the first resort. Encouragement is preferable to punishment, and kids will work harder if they know there's a reward at the end of it all rather than just more BS like university.