A question about european Jews.

[WarDude]

I heard that european Jews came from Italy and Spain who for some reason moved north-east torward Germania and later Poland and Russia.
What I dont understand is why? I know about the Spanish Inquisition but there were jews in northern europe before.
Another thing I dont understand is why so many european Jews resemble the natives, as far as I know Jews barely intermarried with the natives as it was unpopular both in jewish and christian societies, moreover converts were also rare as in the middle ages Jews were persecuted.
Despite these facts I stand here (I am a european jew) with some very nordic\european features.

[The Noble Lord]

Very simple, Jewish people had to migrate from one part of Europe to another because of the persecution and Antisemitism that was rampant. They left Spain when they were forced with either conversion or annihilation by the newly united country that was seeking a new identity and saw Jews as outcasts and a foreign entity.
Then they had to leave Western Europe because they were blamed for Black Death among other things, and Polish king invited the Jews so settle in his lands. So did Ottoman Sultan Bajazid II in the late 1400s. Then they prospered in Polish-Lithuanian lands and later were incorporated into the Russian Empire.
When it comes to your question why some Jews resemble the natives, it's simple. The lifestyle, climate, diet, freedom to live normally more or less, and certain degree of intermarriage have all contributed that some Jews today resemble that Nordic/European so-called features.

[clandestino]

I heard that european Jews came from Italy and Spain who for some reason moved north-east torward Germania and later Poland and Russia.
What I dont understand is why? I know about the Spanish Inquisition but there were jews in northern europe before.

That's correct, there were Jews in western Europe way before Spanish inquisition and in fact when the Jews where expelled from Spain they didn't went to Germany and eastern Europe but mostly to northern Africa, European part of Ottoman empire and in lesser extent to Netherlands ( Baruch Spinosa was one of them ) and Italy. There were numerous Jewish communities in pretty much every important city in western Europe and Italy since as early Roman empire, the one of the oldest ones being the one in the Rome itself ( I think that ghetto of Rome is the oldest European Jewish community ). Most of the western and eastern European Jews are descendants of Jews who lived in Italy and Gaul from Roman times. Latter, during the Carolingian empire they started to move in Germany and from there to Poland and eventually to Russia. The migration to Germany was bolstered by periodical expulsions of Jews from France and Britain.

Another thing I dont understand is why so many european Jews resemble the natives, as far as I know Jews barely intermarried with the natives as it was unpopular both in jewish and christian societies, moreover converts were also rare as in the middle ages Jews were persecuted.

Little piece of information: you don't have to get marry to have children, and one's mother's husband is not necessarily one's father
Now to be serious, there is evident fact that Jews generally have similar look like the indigenous populations which probably predates time of official christianisation of Roman empire when mixed marriages between Jews and Christians became pretty much impossible, so the mixing of Jews with non-Jews probably occurred during the Roman period in the first 3-4 centuries of new era.

[WarDude]

That's correct, there were Jews in western Europe way before Spanish inquisition and in fact when the Jews where expelled from Spain they didn't went to Germany and eastern Europe but mostly to northern Africa, European part of Ottoman empire and in lesser extent to Netherlands ( Baruch Spinosa was one of them ) and Italy. There were numerous Jewish communities in pretty much every important city in western Europe and Italy since as early Roman empire, the one of the oldest ones being the one in the Rome itself ( I think that ghetto of Rome is the oldest European Jewish community ). Most of the western and eastern European Jews are descendants of Jews who lived in Italy and Gaul from Roman times. Latter, during the Carolingian empire they started to move in Germany and from there to Poland and eventually to Russia. The migration to Germany was bolstered by periodical expulsions of Jews from France and Britain.

Little piece of information: you don't have to get marry to have children, and one's mother's husband is not necessarily one's father
Now to be serious, there is evident fact that Jews generally have similar look like the indigenous populations which probably predates time of official christianisation of Roman empire when mixed marriages between Jews and Christians became pretty much impossible, so the mixing of Jews with non-Jews probably occurred during the Roman period in the first 3-4 centuries of new era.

Dont forget that intermarriage isn't a welcomed thing in Judaism so I doubt it was like that.
Maybe rapes? Maybe when the law enforcement was terrible (at the end of the empire) and because Jews are aliens to europe, some people might...

What did so many jews do in Europe in the times of the Roman Empire? I thought the Romans exiled only the elite and the powerful families.
Sorry I dont answer to the others its just I dont have too much free time.

[Ludicus]

..and in fact when the Jews where expelled from Spain ...in lesser extent to Netherlands ( Baruch Spinosa was one of them )

Sorry,no.

Spinosa was born in Amsterdam. His father was a Portuguese Jew. When Spinosa was born, his father Miguel was one of the Portuguese Jewish community´s deputados. Miguel was born in Vidigueira, Portugal.The name Spinosa derives from the Portuguese Espinhosa and means "from a thorny place".

From the book "Spinosa, a Life":
" When the Portuguese settling in Amsterdam returned to Judaism, they often took Jewish names within the community while retaining the Portuguese New Christian names for business or other proposits"
And:
"To what extent did some Portuguese Jewish families, such as Mendes or Nassi, Spinoza, Nunes da Costa, Vega, Pinto or Teixeira de Mattos, contribute to the growth of capitalism, its entrepreneurial and institutional changes?"
From the paper: "The Portuguese Jews and Modern Capitalism. Trading, Insurance, Banking, Business, and Economic Thought in Amsterdam from earlier 16th to the first decades of 20th centuries"
The Portuguese Jews and Modern Capitalism.

[Gromovnik]

Sorry,no.

Spinosa was born in Amsterdam. His father was a Portuguese Jew. When Spinosa was born, his father Miguel was one of the Portuguese Jewish community´s deputados. Miguel was born in Vidigueira, Portugal.The name Spinosa derives from the Portuguese Espinhosa and means "from a thorny place".

From the book "Spinosa, a Life":
" When the Portuguese settling in Amsterdam returned to Judaism, they often took Jewish names within the community while retaining the Portuguese New Christian names for business or other proposits"
And:
"To what extent did some Portuguese Jewish families, such as Mendes or Nassi, Spinoza, Nunes da Costa, Vega, Pinto or Teixeira de Mattos, contribute to the growth of capitalism, its entrepreneurial and institutional changes?"
From the paper: "The Portuguese Jews and Modern Capitalism. Trading, Insurance, Banking, Business, and Economic Thought in Amsterdam from earlier 16th to the first decades of 20th centuries"
The Portuguese Jews and Modern Capitalism.

yes, but up to the 16-17 centuries "Spain" meant the entire Iberian peninsula, it was a geographical, not a political term.

[Ludicus]

yes, but up to the 16-17 centuries "Spain" meant the entire Iberian peninsula

Well,
- But not during the 15/16th centuries.
-Clandestino isn´t a 14th century man.
The point is,
-Spinosa wasn´t expelled from Castile or Portugal.

1)
"...the territory that is the object of observation in the royal chronicles - this is unquestionably the kingdom of Portugal just as it appears in the Crónica de
Portugal de 1419. Here, the kingdom is the constant that encompasses the various reigns from the first days of the Portuguese monarchy and its first king, Afonso Henriques (1139-1185),up to Afonso IV (1325-1357), the seventh monarch of the same dynasty.
From this perspective, Portugal is subjected to a narrative treatment that is totally independent of the Iberian context, something that was contrary to what had happened until then, as can be seen, for example, in the Crónica Geral de Espanha de 1344"
Source:
"Medieval Portuguese Royal Chronicles"
-----------------------

2)

A Question of Names

"...The names found throughout this book describing the geographical hearths of the ethnic groups that have inhabited the Iberian peninsula have been used at different times in different senses.
The historical emergence of such names as Spain, Castile, Catalonia responds to discrete processes of cultural differentiation and ethnic ascription and, as Castro indicated, signals diachronic boundaries between different cultures. Because such processes are among the central themes of this discussion, they require meticulousness in the use of geographical terms with ethnic connotations, lest careless usage give rise to anachronistic confusion of people of one culture with those of another.

[U]Spain is meant herein as a geographical term, defining the territory presently occupied by the Spanish state.
Referring to all the medieval Christian territories together, I prefer to allude to the "Christian kingdoms," or to specific ones.

Source:
"Islamic and Christian Spain in Early Middle Ages"

------

[Dr. Croccer]

I heard that european Jews came from Italy and Spain who for some reason moved north-east torward Germania and later Poland and Russia.
What I dont understand is why? I know about the Spanish Inquisition but there were jews in northern europe before.
Another thing I dont understand is why so many european Jews resemble the natives, as far as I know Jews barely intermarried with the natives as it was unpopular both in jewish and christian societies, moreover converts were also rare as in the middle ages Jews were persecuted.
Despite these facts I stand here (I am a european jew) with some very nordic\european features.

Whilst Jews have always been an extremely endogamous community, at the end of the 19th century many Jews became more liberal. This was in part thanks to increased rights for Jews. Many, especially in Eastern Europe, turned to radical left wing ideologies. Many became wealthier. Many became less traditional. Many had non-Jewish partners. This may explain why many Jews look European, increased mingling with natives over the last 100 years.

Another fact is that many traditional Jews were exterminated in the Holocaust or emigrated to Israel. Most were quite poor, and obvious and easy targets for the Nazis, whilst the more progressive and wealthy ones were more able and willing to leave for safe countries.

[Phier]

One thing I've read recently that I didn't know about was that for a period Judaism was rather evangelical in nature, and had many converts. Many of those converts later became the early Christians, but not all and these were European converts, so while Jews may not intermarry much, they did get an infusion of European genetics.

Now I don't know much about this so more info would be interesting.

[Last Roman]

One thing I've read recently that I didn't know about was that for a period Judaism was rather evangelical in nature

Interesting, as Judaism was and to an extent, still is, rather "exclusive" (for lack of better word). You usually are born into the religion, and converting seems rather difficult. If you have a link to that source, it'd make for an interesting read.

[Dr. Croccer]

One thing I've read recently that I didn't know about was that for a period Judaism was rather evangelical in nature, and had many converts. Many of those converts later became the early Christians, but not all and these were European converts, so while Jews may not intermarry much, they did get an infusion of European genetics.

Now I don't know much about this so more info would be interesting.

The Khazars converted to Judaism in the Middle Ages IIRC.

[clandestino]

Maybe rapes? Maybe when the law enforcement was terrible (at the end of the empire) and because Jews are aliens to europe, some people might...

Nah, the impact would be too small and I doubt that anyone would raise a child of guy who raped his wife.

Dont forget that intermarriage isn't a welcomed thing in Judaism so I doubt it was like that.

Latter they were, but who knows what were the customs 2000 years and more ? I believe that Jewish customs including the martial ones were quite liberal during the hellenistic and roman period. Anyway the rules are one, but how much people stick to them is totally another thing. If someone would judge about Christians only by reading Bible he would get (very wrong ) impression that those people would never shad a drop of blood of another human being.

What did so many jews do in Europe in the times of the Roman Empire? I thought the Romans exiled only the elite and the powerful families.

Trade? Business opportunities? Overpopulation? List is endless, but generally Roman empire was cosmopolitan state and people moved around relatively freely, including Jews.

One thing I've read recently that I didn't know about was that for a period Judaism was rather evangelical in nature, and had many converts. Many of those converts later became the early Christians, but not all and these were European converts, so while Jews may not intermarry much, they did get an infusion of European genetics.

Now I don't know much about this so more info would be interesting.

I totally forgot about impact of non-Jewish converts on Jewish population, kudos. I knew that I'm missing something. Here is one of the most intriguing cases of conversion of non-Jews to Judaism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar#...th_world_Jewry

Some people think that eastern European Jews are descendants of these guys, however since the Jews in these areas speak Yidish ( essentially a Germanic language ) and have German surnames I believe that they came from Germany and maybe absorbed remainings of Khazar Jews.

[WarDude]

Nah, the impact would be too small and I doubt that anyone would raise a child of guy who raped his wife.


Latter they were, but who knows what were the customs 2000 years and more ? I believe that Jewish customs including the martial ones were quite liberal during the hellenistic and roman period. Anyway the rules are one, but how much people stick to them is totally another thing. If someone would judge about Christians only by reading Bible he would get (very wrong ) impression that those people would never shad a drop of blood of another human being.

Trade? Business opportunities? Overpopulation? List is endless, but generally Roman empire was cosmopolitan state and people moved around relatively freely, including Jews.

I suggest you to read about the maccabean and the hashmonite revolt and than tell me if jewish customs 2000 years ago were liberal
I heard that Jews used german surnames in order to hide from the army but maybe its just to polish surnames.

[Sire Brenshar]

I heard that Jews used german surnames in order to hide from the army but maybe its just to polish surnames.

Norman Davies in his Europe: A history states that most Jews who have German names were forced to have them after the Polish partitions.

I don't really doubt that, but I just don't see what it would accomplish...

Something to do with Germanization I guess?

[ivan_the_terrible]

Norman Davies in his Europe: A history states that most Jews who have German names were forced to have them after the Polish partitions.

I don't really doubt that, but I just don't see what it would accomplish...

Something to do with Germanization I guess?

That's possible, but there are many, many Jews with Germanesque last names in Russia too (ie from Polish Ukraine & Belarus and then from Russian Poland). Lots of Jews have names like Goldberg, Goldblum, Zuckerman, etc.

[teh.frickin.pope]

I suggest you to read about the maccabean and the hashmonite revolt and than tell me if jewish customs 2000 years ago were liberal
I heard that Jews used german surnames in order to hide from the army but maybe its just to polish surnames.

Isn't the Old Testament rife with examples of the Israelites foregoing their customs and laws? Normally it follows that some great enemy sweeps out of the desert as god's vengeance, but during the Pax Romana that wouldn't happen so I guess they could keep on with their wicked ways.

[Ace_General]

Taking my family as an example who where nobles in poland, alot of Jews hooked up with gentiles like the case of My great grandfather and a certain Jewish maid and due to the Jews laws about gentiles the children of such situations where usually taken into the Jewish community. My family was different because my great grandfather emigrated to america to marry his Jewish 'Baby Momma' and thats how Im here today

[clandestino]

Is this still about Spinosa? OK he was from Portugal, what a huge mistake, I forgot that Spain and Portugal are in different parts of world... He was a sephardic Jew, i.e Jew of Spanish-Portuguese, or it if you prefer more, Iberian ancestry. And they all had the same destiny, forced by inquisition to convert or to leave the country.

[Ludicus]

Is this still about Spinosa?

Of course not.
It´s just about the incorrect statement:
" but up to the 16-17 centuries "Spain" meant the entire Iberian peninsula, it was a geographical, not a political term"

OK he was from Portugal

Well, he was a descent from Portuguese Jews. His father was born in Portugal. But my point was that Spinosa wasn´t expelled from any part of the world. He was born in Amsterdam.

And they all had the same destiny

Yes and no. Not exactly.
While all Jews who refused Christianity were expelled from Spain in 1492, Portuguese Jewry was never expelled but was converted to Christianity by force, by a mass baptism decreed by King Manuel I in 1497, and emigration started only four decades later with the introduction of the Inquisition to Portugal in 1536; the Marranos who emigrated some decades after conversion had only weak ties with Judaism.
The Portugese Marranos who emigrated looked and behaved like Christians and practiced only a few remnant traditions in secret, and the language of these Portuguese Marranos developed on the basis of the majority norms of standard Portuguese, partly due to the distinct historical circumstances of Jews in Spain and Portugal.

Emigré Judeo-Portuguese developed in the early sixteenth century in places where the Portuguese Marranos re-assumed Judaism and developed flourishing Jewish communities: Northern Germany, Holland, France, Italy, England, the Caribbean, and North and South America. Judeo-Portuguese was called the language of the Portuguese Nation (Nação Portuguesa) and was the official language spoken and written in the diaspora communities. In Western Europe it was used in numerous domains: the home, commercial transactions, administration, formal ceremonies, greetings, sermons, speeches, legal exchanges, registrations, tomb inscriptions, community reports, etc. Only after 1850, with the introduction of public schools, did its use diminish, becoming limited to home use, sometimes only on the Sabbath.

Source:
Judeo-Portuguese
Sharon, Miriam, Strolovitch, Devon L., Wexler, Paul

He was a sephardic Jew

Indeed, but in Portugal they were Portuguese. At least, until the 15th century, the Jews occupied prominent places in Portuguese political and economical life; in fact the Jews played a more important role in Portugal than in other European country. At the end of the 15th century, they owned perhaps a fifth of the moveable property in the country and probably run most of its financial services. One (exaggerated?) estimate of the number of Jews in Portugal around the end of the 15th century is 200,000 -approximately one fitfh of the Portuguese population - and the importance of their contribution to the growth of culture/science/commerce is unquestioned.

[Odovacar]

Jews intermarried with christians since 19th century. Occasionally earlier maybe too. In the 20th century they were becoming atheistic enough not to care it anymore. My gf's mom is jewish, (grandma was in auschwitz) but married a christian hungarian, and the result is my gf who has blue eyes, and blondish hear, with absolute nothing jewish feature.
Or at least those features are not common enough for anyone to notice them.