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Thread: A question about Pakistan.

  1. #281
    Gigantus's Avatar I am not special - I am a limited edition.
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    Default Re: why should pakistan even exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Poet View Post
    You talk like a Mod in a India-Pakistan thread, my foot doesn't care because no one from your side is talking on base of facts either, for example funny and pathetic allegation of an Indian that Jinnah was responsible for 71 dismemberment and Kashmir invasion, in other words, pathetic Indian moaning that Pakistan should not have made, we exist and we will make anyone feel our existence with poking our nuclear missiles in his state's ass if he doesn't accept.
    If you haven't yet woken up to the possibility that I might actually try to have discussion with you without me being part of this Indo_Pak pissing contest then I am truly disappointed. Classifying me as "your side" isn't exactly what would this thing get going. Could it be a compulsion to try and antagonize people? It is kind of difficult to have a discussion if every second adjective is deriding the previous words typed.
    May be you should also let go of the anal fixation, it is not becoming a mature person.










  2. #282
    Tiberios's Avatar Le Paysan Soleil
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    Default Re: why should pakistan even exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Poet View Post
    That's bs.
    You are welcome to post a source proving me wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poet View Post
    Pakistan oppressed it's citizens Muslims and Non-Muslim bengalis,
    Yes Pakistan did that, killing thousands of them in the process.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poet View Post
    India had nothing to do under Intl law, or if it is otherwise, then wars to liberate Kashmiris from Indian stranglehold are also valid. There is a limit to double standards and hypocrisy.
    I take it you didn't read what I wrote, because I actually said that if India oppressed or persecuted Muslims in Kashmir, that such actions would give Pakistan a reason to interfere.

  3. #283

    Default Re: why should pakistan even exist

    Pakistan oppressed it's citizens Muslims and Non-Muslim bengalis,
    Yes Pakistan did that, killing thousands of them in the process.
    thousands ??

    Kill three million of them and the rest will eat out of our hands.”

    -pakistan President Yahya Khan at a conference between pakistani army generals on February 22, 1971
    a moderate estimate of the number killed is around 2 million. while hindus were the primary target, large number of bangladeshi muslims were killed as well, especially educated muslims were selectively targeted in a nation wide pakistan army operation named operation searchlight.

    The Hindus, who account for three-fourths of the refugees and a majority of the dead, have borne the brunt of the Moslem military's hatred. Even now, Moslem soldiers in East Pakistan will snatch away a man's lungi (sarong) to see if he is circumcised, obligatory for Moslems; if he is not, it usually means death. Others are simply rounded up and shot. Commented one high U.S. official last week: "It is the most incredible, calculated thing since the days of the Nazis in Poland."
    Time magazine, Aug 02, 1971.
    http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,878408,00.html

    10 million refugees moved into India to escape the genocide by pak army while the international community was looking the other way. even then, the war was started by pakistan, not India.




  4. #284

    Default Re: why should pakistan even exist

    This thread is so full of comic nationalist garbage and one religous man throwing around insults its disgusting.

  5. #285
    Pra's Avatar Sir Lucious Left Foot
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    Default Re: why should pakistan even exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Poet View Post
    That's bs. Pakistan oppressed it's citizens Muslims and Non-Muslim bengalis, India had nothing to do under Intl law, or if it is otherwise, then wars to liberate Kashmiris from Indian stranglehold are also valid. There is a limit to double standards and hypocrisy.
    This is why you're wrong.

    In the 1947 war, there were no atrocities committed by the Indian Army. They were moving into what was legally their territory. Consequently Pakistan preemtively attacked.

    Secondly, every war Pakistan has claimed to be the 'peacekeeper' there has been no widescale atrocities. They've been trumped up and exaggerated by Pakistan to invade Kashmir, almost everytime they've lost their initial objectives, and the US or the UN has to be called in for Pakistan to accept a ceasefire (with Indian forces giving back Pakistani land that they've occupied in nearly every case.)

    The 71 war was different because India had to move in as peacekeepers because of the widescale genocide in EastPakistan/Bangladesh. You were committing genocide on such a scale, that reportedly every 8 seconds a Bengali was killed. The total number of casualties was something like 3 million. Your General Farman wrote "Green land of East Pakistan will be painted red". Yet you claim to be the moral superior here.

    The reason India had to move in was because

    1.) wide scale genocide in East Pakistan of Muslim and non Muslim Bengalis
    2.) huge number of influx of refugees, putting a huge strain on Indian resources


    neither of these things is happening, or has happened in Kashmir. Living there, things only got worse when insurgents and operatives from Pakistan came in here. They disrupted the economy, shelled villages indiscriminately, and claimed they were fighting for 'our freedom'. They were the aggressors in every case. And they've failed in acquiring their objectives in every case.
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  6. #286

    Default Re: why should pakistan even exist

    In the 1947 war, there were no atrocities committed by the Indian Army. They were moving into what was legally their territory. Consequently Pakistan preemtively attacked.
    Pra, check the history. IA moved in after pak raiders attacked.
    it was the invasion from pakistan that forced Hari Singh to sign the instrument of accession.

    In 1947 India gained independence from British rule. Kashmir had the option to join either India or Pakistan or remain independent. He originally manoeuvered to maintain his independence by playing off India and Pakistan. Following an invasion by Pakistani Armed Forces in October 1947, Singh appealed to India for help.[1] India refused to come to his aid unless he acceded to India.[2]


    Letter from The Maharaja Of Jammu & Kashmir to Lord Mountbatten, Governor General of India.


    http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/documents/harisingh47.html

    Dated: 26 October 1947
    My dear Lord Mountbatten,
    I have to inform your Excellency that a grave emergency has arisen in my State and request immediate assistance of your Government.
    As your Excellency is aware the State of Jammu and Kashmir has not acceded to the Dominion of India or to Pakistan. Geographically my State is contiguous to both the Dominions. It has vital economical and cultural links with both of them. Besides my State has a common boundary with the Soviet Republic and China. In their external relations the Dominions of India and Pakistan cannot ignore this fact.
    I wanted to take time to decide to which Dominion I should accede, or whether it is not in the best interests of both the Dominions and my State to stand independent, of course with friendly and cordial relations with both.
    I accordingly approached the Dominions of India and Pakistan to enter into Standstill Agreement with my State. The Pakistan Government accepted this Agreement. The Dominion of India desired further discussions with representatives of my Government. I could not arrange this in view of the developments indicated below. In fact the Pakistan Government are operating Post and Telegraph system inside the State.
    Though we have got a Standstill Agreement with the Pakistan Government that Government permitted steady and increasing strangulation of supplies like food, salt and petrol to my State.
    Afridis, solidiers in plain clothes, and desperadoes with modern weapons have been allowed to infilter into the State at first in Poonch and then in Sialkot and finally in mass area adjoining Hazara District on the Ramkot side. The result has been that the limited number of troops at the disposal of the State had to be dispersed and thus had to face the enemy at the several points simultaneously, that it has become difficult to stop the wanton destruction of life and property and looting. The Mahora powerhouse which supplies the electric current to the whole of Srinagar has been burnt. The numer of women who have been kidnapped and raped makes my heart bleed. The wild forces thus let loose on the State are marching on with the aim of capturing Srinagar, the summer Capital of my Government, as first step to over-running the whole State.
    The mass infiltration of tribesmen drawn from distant areas of the North-West Frontier coming regularly in motor trucks using Mansehra-Muzaffarabad Road and fully armed with up-to-date weapons cannot possibly be done without the knowledge of the Provisional Government of the North-West Frontier Province and the Government of Pakistan. In spite of repeated requests made by my Government no attempt has been made to check these raiders or stop them from coming into my State. The Pakistan Radio even put out a story that a Provinsional Government had been set up in Kashmir. The people of my State both the Muslims and non-Muslims generally have taken no part at all.
    With the conditions obtaining at present in my State and the grreat emergency of the situation as it exists, I have no option but to ask for help from the Indian Dominion. Naturally they cannot send the help asked for by me without my State acceding to the Dominion of India. I have accordingly decided to do so and I attach the Instrument of Accession for acceptance by your Government. The other alternative is to leave my State and my people to free-booters. On this basis no civilized Government can exist or be maintained. This alternative I will never allow to happen as long as I am Ruler of the State and I have life to defend my country.
    I am also to inform your Excellency's Government that it is my intention at once to set up an interim Government and ask Sheikh Abdullah to carry the responsibilities in this emergency with my Prime Minister.
    If my State has to be saved immediate assistance must be available at Srinagar. Mr. Menon is fully aware of the situation and he will explain to you, if further explanation is needed.
    In haste and with kind regards,
    The Palace, Jammu Your sincerely,
    26th October, 1947 Hari Singh




  7. #287
    Pra's Avatar Sir Lucious Left Foot
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    Default Re: why should pakistan even exist

    @Boom S, that's what I meant to say. Pakistan sent in soldiers, because the Maharaja acceded to India. What India did after was legally protecting their own territory.

    Still that's neither here nor there, Pakistan was shown to be the aggressor in this case. However, the Kashmir issue isn't what's at debate here. It was supposed to be the reason why Pakistan exists, and every side agrees that it should. I'm not sure how Kashmir got brought into the discussion.
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  8. #288
    Gigantus's Avatar I am not special - I am a limited edition.
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    Default Re: why should pakistan even exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Pra View Post
    ... However, the Kashmir issue isn't what's at debate here. It was supposed to be the reason why Pakistan exists, and every side agrees that it should. I'm not sure how Kashmir got brought into the discussion.
    Check post #4, or was this is a rhetorical question?










  9. #289
    Pra's Avatar Sir Lucious Left Foot
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    Default Re: why should pakistan even exist

    Mostly a rhetorical question haha.

    I'm just curious why India, and Kashmir has to be brought into every issue regarding Pakistan. It only took 4 posts for the original intent of the thread to be derailed.
    Under patronage of Emperor Dimitricus Patron of vikrant1986, ErikinWest, VOP2288


    Anagennese, the Rise of the Black Hand

    MacMillan doesn't compensate for variable humidity,wind speed and direction or the coriolis effect. Mother nature compensates for where Macmillan's crosshairs are.

  10. #290

    Default Re: why should pakistan even exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Pra View Post
    @Boom S, that's what I meant to say. Pakistan sent in soldiers, because the Maharaja acceded to India. What India did after was legally protecting their own territory.
    no !!! please read the letter. at least read the highlighted parts.
    maharaja was still making up his mind (and he was entirely within his rights to do so) when pakistan send invaders unprovoked.
    Last edited by Boom S; October 24, 2010 at 01:59 PM.




  11. #291
    Pra's Avatar Sir Lucious Left Foot
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    Default Re: why should pakistan even exist

    Ok that's fine. Minute details aside, essentially Pakistan invaded, and India moved into what was legally their territory.
    Under patronage of Emperor Dimitricus Patron of vikrant1986, ErikinWest, VOP2288


    Anagennese, the Rise of the Black Hand

    MacMillan doesn't compensate for variable humidity,wind speed and direction or the coriolis effect. Mother nature compensates for where Macmillan's crosshairs are.

  12. #292

    Default Re: why should pakistan even exist

    correct.




  13. #293
    Gigantus's Avatar I am not special - I am a limited edition.
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    Default Re: why should pakistan even exist

    Quote Originally Posted by Pra View Post
    I'm just curious why India, and Kashmir has to be brought into every issue regarding Pakistan. It only took 4 posts for the original intent of the thread to be derailed.
    Rhetorical again, right?










  14. #294

    Default Re: A question about Pakistan.

    sorry for bumping this thread.

    a very perceptive article in the pakistani newspaper dawn. how history has been twisted in pakistan and why that lies at the root of much of pakistan's problems today. it may also help us understand dear poet's thought process.

    History must not lie
    From the Newspaper
    Yesterday

    By Shahid Javed Burki EVER since gaining independence Pakistan has done a remarkable job of either ignoring its history or simply not telling the truth about it. The first is true for economic history, the second for the part of history that concerns the country`s political evolution.

    In a well-known work Khursheed Kamal Aziz — or simply KK as he was known to his friends and admirers — wrote about the series of lies and distortions that crept into the writing of history. In , one of his last works, he confessed that he was also guilty of committing this crime. The Making of Pakistan
    In the officially sponsored which for many years remained the definitive account of the founding of Pakistan as a separate state for the Muslim community of British India, Aziz gave greater prominence to Muslim nationalism as the reason for the creation of Pakistan than suggested by the facts.
    This line of argument was pursued in a number of works by several other political historians who followed Aziz`s work. They identified religion as the motivating factor behind the movement for the creation of Pakistan. The question of why a segment of the Muslim population of British India came to believe that separation from the Indian mainland was the only way to protect their interests acquired importance in the writings on the founding of Pakistan. Increasingly, the answer came to be provided in religious terms.
    This interpretation of history is not only wrong, it is also dangerous. What we are seeing now in terms of the rise of extremist Islam in the country can be attributed to this line of thinking. This approach to history has also resulted in casting `Hindu` India as the eternal enemy. I have advisedly put the word `Hindu` in quotation marks since India is not by any stretch of the imagination a Hindu state. It is a secular state that defines itself as such in the constitution it has followed carefully and dutifully. It is no doubt a Hindu-majority country but has permitted all religious communities to exercise their rights according to the law of the land.
    Distorting the Indian political entity has already done considerable mischief and has influenced Pakistan`s relations with its large neighbour. As Raza Aslan, the young Islamic Iranian-American scholar of some repute has emphasised in his recent book, , conflict based on ideologies can only be waged if the enemy can be defined as the `other` — an entity, political or otherwise, against which a struggle must be waged no matter what the cost.
    These conflicts become dangerous, prolonged and unending when both sides take recourse to a higher being. This is what Al Qaeda has done globally and what various Islamic groups are doing in Pakistan at this time. For the first the Christians, Jews and what it calls the “crusaders” constitute the `other`. For some of the Pakistani groups India has been cast in that role.
    This approach has done an enormous amount of damage to Pakistan. As Raza Rumi recently wrote in a weekly newspaper devoting considerable space to K.K. Aziz`s work, the writing of history was brutalised during the Zia era. “Pakistan`s military-bureaucracy complex reinvented an ideological state based on a sectarian world view; history was an instrument propagating this ideology; and the jihad factories were flourishing. Jinnah`s Pakistan was irreversibly shattered and perhaps destroyed. For K.K. Aziz`s generation this was nothing short of betrayal.”
    As I have written in several of my own works, the Pakistan movement may have used the idiom of Islam as a way of drawing mass support; it was not a movement for creating an Islamic entity but an attempt to secure a better economic future for the Muslims of British India. This is why there was a paradox in the way the movement achieved its ultimate objective — the creation of Pakistan.
    The movement was led by a group of people who belonged to the Muslim minority areas of British India and who felt that their economic future would be threatened in a state in which the Hindu majority would rule. However, they created a state in the part of British India in which Muslims constituted a large majority and felt secure about their economic future even after the departure of the British from India. It was for this reason that Punjab and the Frontier were at best lukewarm to the idea of Pakistan. But once Pakistan came into being these two elements coalesced to define a view in which the economic betterment of the citizenry was the main goal to be pursued.
    However, then Islamists under Gen Ziaul Haq entered the picture and began to distort the original idea of Pakistan. Mohammad Ali Jinnah`s famous words uttered as he was preparing to launch the new state of Pakistan — “You are free. You are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place of worship in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion, caste or creed — that has nothing to do with the business of the state” — meant nothing to these ideologues. They got busy in rewriting the meaning of the idea of Pakistan. n
    The inherent conflict between the two ideas of Pakistan remains unresolved. What is it that we want to create in what is now the second largest country in the Muslim world? Do we want a state ordered according to the `principles of Islam` whatever that term implies or to improve the economic and social circumstances of the country`s citizens? There is enough evidence around to suggest that it was the latter objective that was in the minds of the founders of the country. It is that objective that we need to follow.




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