Council of Holy Roman Empire.

[Lord Lancelot]

Hi everyone, i want to start this thread for discusion ,abaut one of greatest empires in medieval, and one of beutiest factions in Medieval 2 Total War Stanless Steel.

[Neptune7]

Great, I love history, and I know nothing about the Holy Roman Empire. Questions I have are.

• How did it get its name, and when?
• Why is it one of the greatest empires in Medieval History?
• What are the reasons for the creation and decline of the HRE?
• How did it get along with its neighbors?

[Lord Lancelot]

Great, I love history, and I know nothing about the Holy Roman Empire. Questions I have are.

• How did it get its name, and when?
• Why is it one of the greatest empires in Medieval History?
• What are the reasons for the creation and decline of the HRE?
• How did it get along with its neighbors?

Good, i will now say everything what i knew, i will not look at wiki or somewhere else.

Holy Roman Empire was coalation of many duchyes all what i remember: Saxony,Lombardy,Austria,Bawaria,Swabia,Upper Lorraine,Lower Lorraine,Frankony,Bohemia . These duchyes was in coalation.Becouse they haven the bigest piece of europe, and they have many great things in history, like (i dont remember name) one man wanet to kill pope with gold rope, the teutonic order,(German Order)

Neighbors , heh, they always was at war The most hated for empire enemy i think was France and Italian duchyes.

[Knight of the Mark]

Otto I was elected King of the Eastern part of what used to be the empire of Charlemagne in 936 and was later (962?) able to win the pope's favor, who dubbed him Emperor. He aquired parts of northern Italy, fought against the Magyars and was obviously trying to keep ahead of the western franks... so i'd say besides fighting for more power, getting the pope's blessing to be the legitimate successor to Charlemagne's empire was the main reason for turning the kingdom into what was later called the Holy Roman Empire.
In the mid-15th-century its name was actually changed to Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation. Over time the emperors grew weaker while the dukes and other regional powerhouses as well as prominent members of the clergy increased their influence. Finally the Empire was a mere union of territories and was abolished during the Napoleonic wars in 1806.
Just a short few points on why it was one of the greates empires: size (ok, that one was easy), family ties spreading all over europe, prominent emperors like Frederick I (Barbarossa) and Frederick II (who took on an important role during the crusades, "reformed" society in a few ways), influential clergy, economic dominance of the Hanse, huge impact on all of Europe due to everchanging relations with the popes, and finally being one of the hotspots of religious unrest / war when Luther and others caused the emergence of the protestant churches.

[rockman4417]

Exactly, but Charlemagne forced the Pope to crown him, so it's anyway quite strange

What I remember from my reading, it's still a bit of a debate whether or not Charlemagne even knew he was going to be crowned by the Pope!

But yeah, it was Charlemagne who basically unified the empire, such as it was.

[Ottheinrich]

What I remember from my reading, it's still a bit of a debate whether or not Charlemagne even knew he was going to be crowned by the Pope!

But yeah, it was Charlemagne who basically unified the empire, such as it was.

According to Einhard, Charlemagne was rather shocked to be crowned. Although other sources discribe the event in a differant way, I personly think Einhard was right here:

The title "Emperor" bound him far strong to the pope, forcing him to protect him. And being called "imperator Romanum" was an insult to the Byzantine Empire. It was ruled by Irene of Athens at that time, who, as a female, wasn't officialy allowed to be imperatrix.


The later Emperors weren't always weak. Just think about the Habsburger. They were basiclly the powerhouse in medieval Europe, "ruling" over Austria, Burgundy and Spain (plus all spanish territories in America).
The power of the Emporer was broken by early capitalism beginning in the 15th century and the Reformation, both leading to stronger and more emancipated princes.

[Lukianos]

As much as I love the HRE, certain historical facts cannot be ingored:

The HRE was not a great empire. Emperors were elected, and typically the weakest Elector Count was put in place as to not threaten the power of the rest of the Nobility. As such, much of the power of the emperor was simply platitudes.

In the post-Medieval era, the HRE was simply a figurehead (i.e. post Maximilian and Charles V). For example, Gustavus Adolphus ravaged the HRE during the Thirty Year's War, parts of the empire were frequently divided between the Austrian and Spanish Habsburgs, Napoleon single-handedly abolished the empire in 1806, etc.

Medieval Era HRE had a few strong emperors, as noted above. Frederick Barbarossa was highly influential in the Third Crusade (until he died on the way to the Holy Land), but keep in mind that throughout his reign he was continually challenged by the Papacy, and other Nobles within the Empire.

In short, if SS were to accurately represent the HRE, it would not exist as it is right now. There would be between 5 and 15 individual states, typically warring with each other, holding secret alliances, and a figurehead emperor who, at times, actually has power.

[bɑne]

As much as I love the HRE, certain historical facts cannot be ingored:

The sad thing is that those facts can't be implemented within the enginelimits without suffering a huge drawback.

[Lukianos]

The sad thing is that those facts can't be implemented within the enginelimits without suffering a huge drawback.

Would definitely make for a very interesting HRE faction.

[bɑne]

Would definitely make for a very interesting HRE faction.

If you want that then there are other mods out there that do just that:
Das Heilige Römische Reich This mod focuses on a much more realistic representation of the Holy Roman Empire: The vanilla HRE faction has been split in 9 factions and lots of features like Imperial Elections, Imperial Ban, Imperial Tax, Coronations, Antipopes, etc... have been added.
And as you can guess, yes, having that in SS would mean we would have to eliminate 6-8 factions.

And their name is blasphemy towards the 'real' Roman empire (the Byzzies)

Here I thought the main reason they adapted that name was so that the prophecy about the end of the worlds would be avoided

[ChivalrousKiller]

As much as I love the HRE, certain historical facts cannot be ingored:

The HRE was not a great empire. Emperors were elected, and typically the weakest Elector Count was put in place as to not threaten the power of the rest of the Nobility. As such, much of the power of the emperor was simply platitudes.

In the post-Medieval era, the HRE was simply a figurehead (i.e. post Maximilian and Charles V). For example, Gustavus Adolphus ravaged the HRE during the Thirty Year's War, parts of the empire were frequently divided between the Austrian and Spanish Habsburgs, Napoleon single-handedly abolished the empire in 1806, etc.

Medieval Era HRE had a few strong emperors, as noted above. Frederick Barbarossa was highly influential in the Third Crusade (until he died on the way to the Holy Land), but keep in mind that throughout his reign he was continually challenged by the Papacy, and other Nobles within the Empire.

In short, if SS were to accurately represent the HRE, it would not exist as it is right now. There would be between 5 and 15 individual states, typically warring with each other, holding secret alliances, and a figurehead emperor who, at times, actually has power.

And their name is blasphemy towards the 'real' Roman empire (the Byzzies)

Otto I was elected King of the Eastern part of what used to be the empire of Charlemagne in 936 and was later (962?) able to win the pope's favor, who dubbed him Emperor. He aquired parts of northern Italy, fought against the Magyars and was obviously trying to keep ahead of the western franks... so i'd say besides fighting for more power, getting the pope's blessing to be the legitimate successor to Charlemagne's empire was the main reason for turning the kingdom into what was later called the Holy Roman Empire.
In the mid-15th-century its name was actually changed to Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation. Over time the emperors grew weaker while the dukes and other regional powerhouses as well as prominent members of the clergy increased their influence. Finally the Empire was a mere union of territories and was abolished during the Napoleonic wars in 1806.
Just a short few points on why it was one of the greates empires: size (ok, that one was easy), family ties spreading all over europe, prominent emperors like Frederick I (Barbarossa) and Frederick II (who took on an important role during the crusades, "reformed" society in a few ways), influential clergy, economic dominance of the Hanse, huge impact on all of Europe due to everchanging relations with the popes, and finally being one of the hotspots of religious unrest / war when Luther and others caused the emergence of the protestant churches.

Exactly, but Charlemagne forced the Pope to crown him, so it's anyway quite strange

[Lord Lancelot]

And their name is blasphemy towards the 'real' Roman empire (the Byzzies)

Maybe they called them selves as successors of Western Roman Empire?

[Knight of the Mark]

you are making good points here Lukianos! maybe we should differentiate more clearly between medieval HRE (as in early campaign) and late HRE (late campaign and beyond). especially during the "making" of the HRE the emperors who were strong leaders (in war and peace) had more power vs the members of the elector council, but they needed LOTS of income to "buy" support for their policy. so during that period i'd still call HRE one of the great kingdoms/empires of the west, while you are absolutely right about the later period.

one last comment as to what i included into the word "great" besides political stability, economic and military power: relevance in the history of Europe... no way of getting around it to explain why things developed as they did.

Exactly, but Charlemagne forced the Pope to crown him, so it's anyway quite strange

force, bribe, convince,.... its just the way politics worked back in the old days just as long as you had the man say his "ok" or at least not excommunicate you, you could draw some "legitimacy" for your actions/titles.

[Spannyy]

You had to choose the faction that was, my only ally then turned destroyed :/

[Ichon]

I've wondered for awhile what the results would be if much more of the map in certain areas was began as strong rebels. If many of the less organized factions in SS were portrayed as starting with mainly the Capitol and perhaps 1 or 2 famous regions.

HRE could start with Frankfurt, Hamburg, Innsbruck, and Bologna for example or just eastern area of the "Empire" controlled by Habsburgs plus Metz or Antwerp as there is no single region on SS map that represents their territory in Luxembourg adequately.

France could start with Paris, Toulouse, Bordeux, and Chateauroux. Burgundy, Flanders, Anjou, and Provence were often opposing the Royal family into the 1500s. Might help English AI focus on Scotland first as well.

Ottomans should start smaller as well while Egypt is about right but Syria needs stronger rebel garrisons so both CS and Egypt are forced to wait awhile to expand anywhere except against each other.