A solution to the ‘cash jobs’ problem in the construction industry…

[Amorphos]

A solution to the ‘cash jobs’ problem in the construction industry…

I have worked in this industry for much of my life and I see people doing cash work all the time, I would estimate 60% of smaller jobs like extension use workers paid in cash so as to avoid paying taxes. The problem is that the treasury looses billions by general cash work, which means everyone else are paying the bill for that. Most of such workers as ’self employed’, but they are not really its just an illusion, they all work for bosses just like everyone else. There is no accountability in employing workers who wont put things right or do bad work which people don’t realise is bad until after they have gone. I think people have a right to accountability of people who do work on their properties.

Solution;

Stop self employment in the manner it now stands, create cooperatives of workers so that instead of a load of individuals you then have an investable business with a large pool of collective wealth. Each region and county could belong to a cooperative within a group of such, a client just phones a single number to get tradesmen and hence if that chap does a bad job he will have to put it right or get struck off. Each worker would have a permit to do that job. When someone puts in a planning application they have to cite which cooperative will do the work, then they have to show certificates showing the amount paid to each trade [otherwise some builders will say they did the work so they don’t have to pay their employees tax [its complicated]]. If this is done there is no way out, jobs have to be done right or be put right and the tax man will get his money saving billions.

[roy34543]

I think the problem is that construction is a very dynamic industry in terms of employment, you might not want older workers for certain jobs, and you might not want young ones for others. You may be willing to pay everyone a fixed price, or maybe not. On top of this maintaining a structure is expensive, and the construction industry has both good and bad times, and while in good times it might be easy to have a organizaion of sorts , in difficult times it may be forced to disband due to lack of funds. On top of this not everyone is permenantly employed in consturction, and may move on to other jobs. So if you know one cooperative that does the work and does it well, if you call them in 5 years it may be half the workers in it are different, and its not the same at all.

[Amorphos]

I think the problem is that construction is a very dynamic industry in terms of employment, you might not want older workers for certain jobs, and you might not want young ones for others. You may be willing to pay everyone a fixed price, or maybe not. On top of this maintaining a structure is expensive, and the construction industry has both good and bad times, and while in good times it might be easy to have a organizaion of sorts , in difficult times it may be forced to disband due to lack of funds. On top of this not everyone is permenantly employed in consturction, and may move on to other jobs. So if you know one cooperative that does the work and does it well, if you call them in 5 years it may be half the workers in it are different, and its not the same at all.

Good points. You don’t pay everyone a fixed wage you have a hierarchy according to skills and pay according to what the clients want, higher skill or cheaper price. Also as a cooperative all workers pay a small amount into a pool which then pays them during the dip so the whole thing evens out. I don’t see how workers moving would be any different to how it is now? I know that structure cost, but you have less builders [the boss type builders] because if centralised you don’t need as many. Each builder expects to get around 50% profit and all they do is pick up the phone and take work on then go and price it, this could be done [and often is] by the workers and secretaries, hence you save loads of money [that 50%].

[roy34543]

Good points. You don’t pay everyone a fixed wage you have a hierarchy according to skills and pay according to what the clients want, higher skill or cheaper price. Also as a cooperative all workers pay a small amount into a pool which then pays them during the dip so the whole thing evens out. I don’t see how workers moving would be any different to how it is now? I know that structure cost, but you have less builders [the boss type builders] because if centralised you don’t need as many. Each builder expects to get around 50% profit and all they do is pick up the phone and take work on then go and price it, this could be done [and often is] by the workers and secretaries, hence you save loads of money [that 50%].

The essential problem is that if your basing the reputation of a cooperative based on its skill in a project it did say, 5 years ago, easily half of the workers could be somewhere else by that time. So its hard to work on a reputation basis like that.

[Amorphos]

The essential problem is that if your basing the reputation of a cooperative based on its skill in a project it did say, 5 years ago, easily half of the workers could be somewhere else by that time. So its hard to work on a reputation basis like that.

In my experience workers don’t leave the industry that much, but reputations don’t really matter in this model; tradesmen have to have a certificate of standard to show they can do the job before joining the coop. the coop simple performs to the national standards.
I have to say that the same problem is far worse now, contractors are loosing and gaining workers regularly and on average probably every few months. You don’t know what you are getting by reputation now, indeed some cowboys can do a job without any training and not put it right when it goes wrong later. Clients are completely unprotected against being overcharged and getting terrible standards of work.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

Communal ownership of the means of production?

that sounds like a fantastic idea, Comrade Commisar! Why has noone thought of this before?

[Amorphos]

Communal ownership of the means of production?

that sounds like a fantastic idea, Comrade Commisar! Why has noone thought of this before?

Its communal anyways, just in a different format. Why, do you prefer people getting ripped off all the time and paying more tax because others arent?

[Denny Crane!]

No individualism? Enforced not voluntary collectivism.

Someone has been reading Marx.

[Amorphos]

No individualism? Enforced not voluntary collectivism.

Someone has been reading Marx.

Hahaha not at all, I have never read marx or anything like it.

It would be the same, we ’self employed’ people already work for others, who do you think pays us? We work for clients, builders or contractors, in fact there has been many attempts to make us all P.A.Y.E, and many in the industry are. Admittedly we have slightly more freedom in that we can work for who we want to and where we so wish, but in the end we go where the work is which is exactly how the cooperative would work. it’s a mess at the moment and for bosses it’s a nightmare, you got a deadline to meet and your workers can shuffle off at any time and leave you stranded.

[Big War Bird]

Hahaha not at all, I have never read marx or anything like it.

Pardon me If I notice that your lack of book learning shows.

It would be the same, we ’self employed’ people already work for others, who do you think pays us? We work for clients, builders or contractors, in fact there has been many attempts to make us all P.A.Y.E, and many in the industry are. Admittedly we have slightly more freedom in that we can work for who we want to and where we so wish, but in the end we go where the work is which is exactly how the cooperative would work. it’s a mess at the moment and for bosses it’s a nightmare, you got a deadline to meet and your workers can shuffle off at any time and leave you stranded.

What you have been describing has alrady been tried and died off. You are advocating the return of the union hall. Short term jobs were handed out by union bosses who controlled access to employers. Invariably these union bosses secured employment for friends and family first and demanded kickbacks from everyone else.

[Xanthippus of Sparta]

Stop self employment in the manner it now stands, create cooperatives of workers so that instead of a load of individuals you then have an investable business with a large pool of collective wealth. Each region and county could belong to a cooperative within a group of such, a client just phones a single number to get tradesmen and hence if that chap does a bad job he will have to put it right or get struck off. Each worker would have a permit to do that job. When someone puts in a planning application they have to cite which cooperative will do the work, then they have to show certificates showing the amount paid to each trade [otherwise some builders will say they did the work so they don’t have to pay their employees tax [its complicated]]. If this is done there is no way out, jobs have to be done right or be put right and the tax man will get his money saving billions.

This actually has historical precedent in the US, maybe not quite as you imagine, but hear me out...

For example, here in Pennsylvania where I live, coal miners that were locked out during the Great Depression would form cooperatives, essentially informally going into business for themselves, and dig their own mines. Then they would sell the coal for fuel at below market prices and share in whatever profit.

This actually happened in many industries during the Depression.

[Amorphos]

Pardon me If I notice that your lack book learning shows.

I have read thousands of books, but why would I read a book where I have seen many quotes that I disagree with, and its result when people attempt to put it into practice? its just not worth my time and effort. I didn’t do politics at collage I done engineering, but I do understand the construction industry far better than you do. ...not that i should have to defend myself against you.

What you have been describing has alrady been tried and died off. You are advocating the return of the union hall. Short term jobs were handed out by union bosses who controlled access to employers. Invariably these union bosses secured employment for friends and family first and demanded kickbacks from everyone else.

Perhaps re-read what I have wrote? I was speaking of a cooperate which all the workers in a region would be part of on a permanent basis [as they so wish obviously].

Xanthippus of Sparta

This actually has historical precedent in the US, maybe not quite as you imagine, but hear me out...

For example, here in Pennsylvania where I live, coal miners that were locked out during the Great Depression would form cooperatives, essentially informally going into business for themselves, and dig their own mines. Then they would sell the coal for fuel at below market prices and share in whatever profit.

This actually happened in many industries during the Depression.

For sure, it is possible but I guess all those guys gradually got closed out by the capitalists. There was an experiment conducted by oxford university in spain, where a whole small town was converted to coops and the whole thing run as a kinda coop of coops, where the busineses own and run the bank and give loans to new or growing businesses etc. I think it is similar to anarcho-syndicatism ~ as far as I know.

[Mythos]

For sure, it is possible but I guess all those guys gradually got closed out by the capitalists. There was an experiment conducted by oxford university in spain, where a whole small town was converted to coops and the whole thing run as a kinda coop of coops, where the busineses own and run the bank and give loans to new or growing businesses etc. I think it is similar to anarcho-syndicatism ~ as far as I know.

Interesting. Do you have any links on this?

[Big War Bird]

I have read thousands of books,

Reading Green Eggs and Ham over and over does not count.

but why would I read a book where I have seen many quotes that I disagree with, and its result when people attempt to put it into practice? its just not worth my time and effort. I didn’t do politics at collage I done engineering, but I do understand the construction industry far better than you do. ...not that i should have to defend myself against you.

You don't have to defend yourself to me, just learn from me. I can be a prmiary source for anything.

Perhaps re-read what I have wrote? I was speaking of a cooperate which all the workers in a region would be part of on a permanent basis [as they so wish obviously].

I did read what you wrote. It is the old union hall concept writ large. They were a den of corruption then and there is no reason to think they wouldn't be again.

[Amorphos]

Interesting. Do you have any links on this?

I have been looking but cannot find any, when I was at collage learning engineering we were shown a film about it, and were all quite aghast at the simplicity seamlessness of it all. There was no unemployment, when a business had less demand for a period, then people were put on 3 day weeks [paid for 5], unused labour was offered placement of choice according to skills, and there was always placement. Instead of getting loans the whole set of businesses in a region of the town, got loads from its own central bank where all profits went to such ends. You also had the collective of such regions in the central town bank also owned and run by the businesses/people. Potentially of course you would then have lager county wide collectives and a national one, such that wealth could be spread where needed. With no loans or shares taking from the businesses, imagine who they would prosper!


thats approximately what i can remember from it.

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I did read what you wrote. It is the old union hall concept writ large. They were a den of corruption then and there is no reason to think they wouldn't be again.

Except they would not be union halls, they would be businesses as like any other.

[Big War Bird]

Perhaps the experiment you are referring to is the Mondragon Corporation, a coop in the Basque region of Spain, which is not all what you have been describing and advocating and a far cry from where this thread began?

[Ramashan]

Union Halls in and of themselves is not a bad idea, except, like all things that give power to the few over a service it gets corrupted. But, if you pay money to a be in a Union the union should help you get work when needed.

That being said, I don't think there is a problem at all with cash jobs in the construction industry. My dad did this his whole life, sent me and my brother through college, bought a house, a boat, went on vacations, and various other things he would never have been able to afford if he had not done the work. So, instead the money being taxed when its handed out, its being taxed when he purchases something. In the end, the gov may not be making ALL the tax they could on the money, but they will eventually receive some tax as its spent. And that spending helps other companies and adds to the over all economy.

[Amorphos]

That being said, I don't think there is a problem at all with cash jobs in the construction industry. My dad did this his whole life, sent me and my brother through college, bought a house, a boat, went on vacations, and various other things he would never have been able to afford if he had not done the work. So, instead the money being taxed when its handed out, its being taxed when he purchases something. In the end, the gov may not be making ALL the tax they could on the money, but they will eventually receive some tax as its spent. And that spending helps other companies and adds to the over all economy.

Everyone I know do cash jobs, but with approx 3m in the industry that’s a lot of revenue lost. Someone has to pay for the things which tax facilitates, so other people are paying the difference! Imagine if every industry done cash jobs, the govt would get hardly any revenue those who invest via national debt would not get their money back and the country would sink into oblivion [if it didn’t change the model at least].

More important is the idea that we would know there would be work in two weeks time, or beyond the current project. Not to mention that clients would get a proper job done as there would be accountability.

[Ramashan]

Everyone I know do cash jobs, but with approx 3m in the industry that’s a lot of revenue lost. Someone has to pay for the things which tax facilitates, so other people are paying the difference! Imagine if every industry done cash jobs, the govt would get hardly any revenue those who invest via national debt would not get their money back and the country would sink into oblivion [if it didn’t change the model at least].

More important is the idea that we would know there would be work in two weeks time, or beyond the current project. Not to mention that clients would get a proper job done as there would be accountability.

Gov would still get revenue from property, service, goods, and tarrifs. Just, they may not get as much money.

And yes, I think that's the good thing about Union Halls, I don't think they have caused quite as much destruction as some here do but that's another debate, but as for accoutnability; If you want to continue to get cash jobs the best way is word of mouth. In which case your only as good as your last job. The better you do, the more likely you'll get more work.

[Amorphos]

Hi Nietzsche

These already exist. They are called Unions and they have destroyed swaths of industries across the US. What is your objection to an individual seeking cash employment? Why are you opposed to an individual making personal economic decisions without a boot on his/her neck?

I am thinking of it in the british context I don’t know how it works in the US. However may I ay that I am also thinking of it in the context of creating new businesses albeit cooperatives ~ not unions! A mass of so called self employed people present no investment opportunity, but if you bring them together as a cohesive entity then they do. Most industries don’t have cash employment so why should the construction industry be any different? The taxes they don’t pay, you pay! [or others not in the construction industry pay].

If those individuals were ‘making personal economic decisions without a boot on his/her neck’ in a responsible way and not expecting others to pay the difference [in tax revenues], it would be fine, but they don’t, and besides it’s a fallacy no one is truly self employed, we all work for clients and bosses.

Ramashan

Gov would still get revenue from property, service, goods, and tarrifs. Just, they may not get as much money.

They get less revenue and others pay the difference, is that fair? [Fair being the keyword in british politics at the moment].

And yes, I think that's the good thing about Union Halls, I don't think they have caused quite as much destruction as some here do but that's another debate, but as for accoutnability; If you want to continue to get cash jobs the best way is word of mouth. In which case your only as good as your last job. The better you do, the more likely you'll get more work.

What I have found is that the cheaper you do the more likely you’ll get more work. You get all manner of scallywags getting away with doing jobs on the cheap, and the customer pays for it via a bad level of work. What happens is that developers and individuals sell on and once everything is painted and glossed over then looks ok, but behind the visage bad practice has occurred and someone will pay for it somewhere along the line.

For any other product people get guarantees, so why not get those on the most expensive product you are likely to pay for in your life?