Lets be mature here: post-1961 neither USSR or USA was all that bad

[removeduser_4536284751384]

There seems to be a common conception among some of our less mature American users, and more noticably, among our more fierce USSR apologists, that one side or the other was an inherently evil empire responsible for various alleged war crimes.

I won't talk about before 1961 because in the USSR many of Stalin's policies were still in effect, and USA McCarthy and the HUAC was busy rounding up people for not being patriotic enough. Nobody reply to this paragraph and try to claim one was worse than the other; while one might be worse than the other, that's what I'm trying to counter with this thread.

Lets make a list comparing the two sides:

• In the USSR education and health care was excellent. Due to the communist system, however the average soviet didn't have the same quality of life as the average middle class American.
• In the USA health, education were excellent provided you were at least middle class, and ok-ish for the poorer sections of society. Quality of life difference was a bit more extreme, although poorer people wouldn't be that much worse than the average soviet.
• The USSR was the epitome of ethnic tolerance and diversity. There was a huge range of peoples in the USSR. The unions governments were almost completely free of racism, and very few of the populous were racist.
• Racism was common in parts of the USA. While most states and the federal were ok, many south eastern state politicians were completely racist, along with much of their populations. I recall at least two occasions where federal troops had to be deployed to allow black people to attend school or university, when the state governor had tried to stop them.
• Both used just as much propaganda (I am waiting for the first person to try on contradict me on this).
• Freedom of speech in both was comparable.
• Both had comparable military disasters in Vietnam and Afghanistan.

here's some general ignorance:

they couldn't possibly fall for this nonsense. It's not like they are Russians or anything. And even then the Reds had to be pretty savvy about pulling something over even the Russian locals.

There was also some nonsense by ivan_the_terrible about the USA "murdering millions" but I can't find it. Anyway that's even more stupid than the above.

[Mr. Scott]

• Racism was common in parts of the USA. While most states and the federal were ok, many south eastern state politicians were completely racist, along with much of their populations. I recall at least two occasions where federal troops had to be deployed to allow black people to attend school or university, when the state governor had tried to stop them.

This federal troop deployment was a very very very very very very famous event in US history. It was the first time that the two races attended the same school in the south. The local authority wouldn't enforce it, so the federals did. This was a very key point in American history and they even had a movie about it (we saw it in my history class last year). This was during the civil rights movement, which is to say, the US was trying to get rid of its racism.

Difference between USSR diversity and American diversity is that the USSR diversity is due to having other cultures within their borders, while in the US it was many cultures within a larger American culture (of which they contributed to)

[Armfelt]

-Both overthrew regimes of neutral countries and placed their puppets in charge.

[Heathen Hammer]

-Both overthrew regimes of neutral countries and placed their puppets in charge.

Its not like nobody does it today.

[Mr. Scott]

Its not like nobody does it today.

the difference is is that now its just one of the two

Although, i dont necessarily mind having a few less hostile nations on the US list...

[hellheaven1987]

I don't know Soviet had freedom of speech - can I criticize Soviet government without KGB agents knocking my door during the night??

[removeduser_4536284751384]

I don't know Soviet had freedom of speech - can I criticize Soviet government without KGB agents knocking my door during the night??

yes

You know that neither had freedom of speech before this date? If you said certain things the HUAC would lose you your livelood or maybe even imprison you.

Uhh what? care to explain?

care to explain what?

[CarbEast]

I don't know Soviet had freedom of speech - can I criticize Soviet government without KGB agents knocking my door during the night??

Well, actually you could. The only things you couldn't touch were the very higher ups, like politburo, or general secretary and the socialist system itself. Local authorities and individual party members were all perfectly "criticizable".

There was also some nonsense by ivan_the_terrible about the USA "murdering millions" but I can't find it.

It can be quite difficult to find something that was never said.

[Pickle_mole]

Freedom of speech in both was comparable.

• Both had comparable military disasters in Vietnam and Afghanistan.

Uhh what? care to explain?

[Dr. Oza]

during khruschnev and the era until breznev .. you probably could , i mean it was during this era that Doctor Zhivago was made, that a few famous soviets actively and famously protested certain aspects of the government...

i totally mispelled those names but am too lazy to correct it...

[YuriVII]

during khruschnev and the era until breznev .. you probably could , i mean it was during this era that Doctor Zhivago was made, that a few famous soviets actively and famously protested certain aspects of the government...

i totally mispelled those names but am too lazy to correct it...

Author of Doctor Zhivago was forced into exile. Those that spoke out against Soviet government were not put into labor camps, instead they went into insane asylums, Americans definently had the Soviets down on freedom of speech. The sixties kinda prove this.

[CiviC]

• The USSR was the epitome of ethnic tolerance and diversity. There was a huge range of peoples in the USSR. The unions governments were almost completely free of racism, and very few of the populous were racist.

You mean nationalities of Soviet Union were subjected to intensive Russification and colonisation with Russophones.

[Vizsla]

If the USSR was so lovely why did they have to cut it off from the rest of the world to keep everybody from trying to run away?
I saw part of the iron curtain soon after it had come down.
The machine gun towers were set up to shoot people trying to get out, not people trying to get in.

[NotYetRegistered]

If the USSR was so lovely why did they have to cut it off from the rest of the world to keep everybody from trying to run away?
I saw part of the iron curtain soon after it had come down.
The machine gun towers were set up to shoot people trying to get out, not people trying to get in.

That was East Germany.

[Vizsla]

That was East Germany.

Nope. I was in the Czech republic. I think it might still have been Czechoslovakia back then but you get my drift.
Do you genuinely believe the USSR was a nice place to be?
How does this happen to apparently sane people?

[Heathen Hammer]

If the USSR was so lovely why did they have to cut it off from the rest of the world to keep everybody from trying to run away?

Because of poor economic conditions caused by Europeans during WW2.

I saw part of the iron curtain soon after it had come down.
The machine gun towers were set up to shoot people trying to get out, not people trying to get in.

So what? Crossing the border was illegal.

You realize that the only reason you can deny the existence of poverty in the USSR is because the USSR didn't acknowldege its existance?

And also because of a lack of said existence.

[xcorps]

So what? Crossing the border was illegal.

In Soviet Union, border crosses YOU.

[Koelkastmagneet]

In Soviet Union, border crosses YOU.

No... just no.

[razor-]

Didn't know USSR had freedom of speech. Also I want to see some proof of USSR citizens not being as racist as Americans other than some colourful propaganda posters with every ethnicity holding hands. I mean if they all loved each other that much then why did so many of the republics break free in 1991

[ivan_the_terrible]

There was also some nonsense by ivan_the_terrible about the USA "murdering millions" but I can't find it.

Don't you think it's better to remove that statement until, and if, you do find it, then?

[/LIST]
You mean nationalities of Soviet Union were subjected to intensive Russification and colonisation with Russophones.

Oh yes, intense Russification. Through such measures as teaching the language of the native ethnic groups of the respective SSRs to all student....