mongol help

[The Source]

so in one of my vannila campagins as the english i thought i was prepared for the mongols waiting for them to come to me at anticoch, i had 3 units of longbowmen thinking i could stop all thier calvary by placing stakes at the gate and i also had about 2 units of armoured swordsmen and a general. ok so the battle went bad, even though i killed like 400-500 hev calvary at the gate with stakes wit thier general aswell, but i expected all thier units to rout but thier lanercs came through and defeated my hev infranty and then later killed my general.

so what im asking is even though i had the mongols ultimate weakness i still lost so how am i going to defeat them with my latest campagins of france and spain?

[Ishan]

so in one of my vannila campagins as the english i thought i was prepared for the mongols waiting for them to come to me at anticoch, i had 3 units of longbowmen thinking i could stop all thier calvary by placing stakes at the gate and i also had about 2 units of armoured swordsmen and a general. ok so the battle went bad, even though i killed like 400-500 hev calvary at the gate with stakes wit thier general aswell, but i expected all thier units to rout but thier lanercs came through and defeated my hev infranty and then later killed my general.

so what im asking is even though i had the mongols ultimate weakness i still lost so how am i going to defeat them with my latest campagins of france and spain?

Generally when the general dies the morale of the army goes down and when 2-3 units goes down simultaneously(the Mongolian heavy cal in your stake thing) the entire army gets scared and routs away. Then with your heavy cavalry u capture them to save the day and gain a nice and easy victory.

But the problem is VH level here the AI gets insane morale bonuses which the player doesn't have so the fighting is really tough and a few units are just not enough to take them down.

So u refine your skills by playing custom battles on VH and learn to use the troops effectively the normal drill like that Spearmen only for cavalry not using them against heavy infantry.
If the besieging army has heavy infantry then take your cavalry out to suicide mission clear away infantry before they reach the gates and walls. Coz the cavalry has no use inside city but to fight in melee with enemy cavalry. etc etc

Check out the Strategies, Guides, Battle Planning thread to learn more or read Nazgul's Guide to gain the edge u want.

[The Source]

uhh actully it was medium difficulty

[Ishan]

uhh actully it was medium difficulty

Bad Boy.
Go and do some practice in the Custom siege battle. The says u are suffering from Mongol-phobia.

[Valandur]

uhh actully it was medium difficulty

Were your men literally in between and in front of the stakes, or behind them. If they were in front of the stakes, they will do very little damage to the Mongols.
Another thing is, the cavalry won't continuosly die in groups as they charge into the stakes, the first wave will die and thats when the next wave will safely move in between the stakes. Thats when the Mongol Lancers can defeat your heavy infantry, in close combat. Armoured Swordsmen would probably be able to take on Light Cavalry in close combat, but the Mongol Heavy Lancers are nearly the best in the game and will cut swathes in your footmen. In siege battles, try to use spearmen as they give ground slowly in an organised formation compared to heavy infantry who are often isolated and fight one on one battles which are unwinnable.
Another way would've been to box the Mongols in an "L". Leave one side of the gate undefended so the Mongols get in thinking they have turned your flank, then you crash your General into their side with huge momentum.

[The Source]

my men were behind the stakes,they were about between the town square and the gate of the city.
but the real question is how do i beat them without longbowmen, specificly factions like spain and france
and im pretty good at battles, been playing for 2+years but i usually get bored of a campgin quickly so this is the first time agains the mongols
and i thought that infranty could easily kill spears

[Highi]

my men were behind the stakes,they were about between the town square and the gate of the city.
but the real question is how do i beat them without longbowmen, specificly factions like spain and france
and im pretty good at battles, been playing for 2+years but i usually get bored of a campgin quickly so this is the first time agains the mongols
and i thought that infranty could easily kill spears

The mongols are all about horse archers/lancers. They love a stack of heavy infantry for breakfast. But they won't do as well in city assaults, especially against spearmen.
As the above posters said, stakes are a good start, but they only really kill if the enemy charges into them. So to finish off the remaining cavalry, you need to have some spear/pike/halberds. prefereably, you should place stakes directly behind the gate, line your spearmen up in a U-shape behind them, and have a units on top of the gatehouse for burning oil. If you manage to burn their siege towers, and if they don't have ladders, you are relatively safe. You'll get a decent amount of kills anyway. This also works without the stakes, but results will be a bit less.
Just out of curiosity, why didn't you keep militia in your city? Most militia are quite decent against cavalry, and they are free of upkeep...

[The Source]

i had hev infrantry instead of peasents cus i just occupied the city, and i knew they were coming

BUT what im really asking is how do you defeat them with other factions and what kind of units to you use to counter thier lancers

[Valandur]

i had hev infrantry instead of peasents cus i just occupied the city, and i knew they were coming

BUT what im really asking is how do you defeat them with other factions and what kind of units to you use to counter thier lancers

I hardly played as France or Spain but I'd say France has some very good units that can counter the Mongols.

The French Heavy Lancers can easily tackle the Mongol Heavy Lancers and the Scots Guard and Arbalesters are quite a good match for the Mongol's own archers.
As France, if you have an army of heavy cavalry, engage the Mongols in the field and mass charge them. A mass charge always works.

[... where did it run?]

but the Mongol Heavy Lancers are nearly the best in the game and will cut swathes in your footmen

Olololol... all this mongol things is so overrated. Mongol lancers (light and heavy) are reletevly weak. Mongol heavy archers are same as mamluk archers. Mongols lack spears and any heavy infantry to hold the line, that means they trust on mobility rather than muscle. Their power lies in numbers, numbers you don't have or can't spare at that moment. Answer: kill them at distance. English longbowmen spam will help. French have scots guard and missle AP HA (don't forget auxilary troops for both armies). Spanish ... well with these you might have a problem. You gonna need to avoid fighting in open fields.

[The Source]

yeh but scots guard are a late era unit, the mongols come between early and high

@Valandur-fighting mongols in open field is really not recomended even when you have the hev calvary, since half of the mongols forces are mounted archers

[... where did it run?]

yeh but scots guard are a late era unit, the mongols come between early and high

Always concentrate few settelments on achieving highiest tier units. If it's a city, build a lot of farms, always keep the low tax mode and build buildings which gives +public order due to health. Always choose the biggest city for such development if you want to achieve late period units fast. Maybe your economy will suffer a bit, but the prize is worth the cost. You will pwn most of enemy armies without much trouble for quite a long time.

With castles you can do same trick. Just don't forget to convert city into castle in time before it's too late. In same way I used to have Quapukulu (best turkish cav) while AI still uses mailed knights/fuedal ones.

[Ishan]

Always concentrate few settelments on achieving highiest tier units. If it's a city, build a lot of farms, always keep the low tax mode and build buildings which gives +public order due to health. Always choose the biggest city for such development if you want to achieve late period units fast. Maybe your economy will suffer a bit, but the prize is worth the cost. You will pwn most of enemy armies without much trouble for quite a long time.

With castles you can do same trick. Just don't forget to convert city into castle in time before it's too late. In same way I used to have Quapukulu (best turkish cav) while AI still uses mailed knights/fuedal ones.

Good tip +rep.

[glorfindel85]

@ troy
spears, spears and again spears. against mongols the best thing is amass spearmen at gates, it is like another set of stakes. you wouldn't be able to keep Antioch anyway, i don't think you would survive their 13 stacks army lining up antioch and not letting you to reinforce. however stakes + archers + spearmen will probably destory 4-5 armies before you loose city.

[Silverheart]

you wouldn't be able to keep Antioch anyway, i don't think you would survive their 13 stacks army lining up antioch and not letting you to reinforce. however stakes + archers + spearmen will probably destory 4-5 armies before you loose city.

I actually did that once ^::^
Playing as Venice, I managed to fend off their entire horde without losing Antioch.
It was a set of 11 battles totally, and after every victory I couldn´t believe it myself and said "I will SO not last another battle". But all of a sudden, they were all reduced to small, battered armies that I could easily take down with a few Mailed Knights. I am so proud of this

However, it might not count, considering that I attacked them in the seventh battle, and was able to buy myself enough time to retrain my garrison army before they came at it again.
But my point remains, I DID succesfully defend Antioch against the Mongol Horde - then the Timurids came and smashed my defenses with their artillery on the second try...

[zcylen]

mongols are nightmare.
you really need more than few stakes to stop the mongols

in my campain Antioch resisted 7 sieges during 188 years until it was burned by those barbarians
I was really mad, I didnt have chance to even breath or rebuild the walls. every time I
sent troops to break the siege I suffered heavy damages and still coultnt make them leave

[glorfindel85]

i used to slaughter several stacks with only one full stack of best cavalry available. it is expensive sport but it proved to be efficient. my losses would be 10-20 %, but mongols would loose full stack. it is cheaper than retaking and rebuilding devastated cities. it is just an option. only problem was to find isolated mongol army as they keep all together.

[midget_roxx]

When I played against the Mongols are the French I used arquebusiers and pikes followed up by cavalry. You really have to match their cavalry to stand a good chance against the mongols. All the infantry stacks I threw at them got picked off by horse archers then charged down till they routed

[The Source]

When I played against the Mongols are the French I used arquebusiers and pikes followed up by cavalry. You really have to match their cavalry to stand a good chance against the mongols. All the infantry stacks I threw at them got picked off by horse archers then charged down till they routed

thanks im a bit scared of facing them with france without the stakes of longbowmen.
i would rep you if i could but im saving it for the who am i thread, if i have any left over ill rep u

[Old Geezer]

If you play as the Spanish you will have little trouble with the Mongols or the Timurid elephants, if you spam Jinetes like crazy and get many them up to at least 7 chevrons. Then you defeat them in the field. First take out all of their trebuchets with heavier knights who are expendable. You can defeat them easily, usually, if you can catch one of their armies with one of your all cavalry experienced armies by charging their foot archers/infantry down and using Jinetes to kill their general or heavy cavalry first. Send 2 or 3 units against the Mongol Heavy cav. or 3 Jinetes against their general. The trebuchets will be completely useless as you will be so mobile they will more likely hit their own men. Basically what you must do is steal their playbook. Often the Mongol/Timurid general will charge your general. So, if you keep your general back, then when the Mongol general comes forward and is nearing your general you run your general away and the Jinetes close in and if you have a heavy cavalry run it into the Mongol general to pin him. (These tactics work as well with Poland, Portugal, or Egypt because they all have ap javelins.)

The French have a good balance of units, but lack fast cavalry (which all of the factions mentioned above have) so you will want to hire as many Alan mercenaries as you possibly can to catch the Mongol horse archers and pin them so that you slower cavalry can catch them.

If the Mongols come at you in a 9-patch formation then you will have a tremendously more difficult situation than if they come in a string. The worst thing is to have 3 or more mongol armies with trebuchets in 2 of them attack you in Antioch. You can have all the stakes and pikes possible and they may still overwhelm you (even with the pikemen's secondary weapons removed) because they can put so many holes in your walls. Their rockets never seem to be able to punch holes thru the huge walls.

Any faction with mounted crossbowmen (especially the Poles) should rely on them a lot against the mongols in field battles.

If you can be near where the Mongols invade and attack them before they get more than 4 or 6 armies on the map then they are far easier to defeat.

As the Poles in several campaigns I destroyed every army within 3 turns of it entering the map. It was very easy to do even though in the battles my armies had less than 600 men each and the Mongols/Timurids had 1100 or more, IIRC. Elephants do not have much of a chance when swarmed by javelins and crossbows.