Being a good vassal

[recentiy03]

I'm playing as the Teutonic Order and after the 4th time Novgorod asked me to become their vassal I kindly inclined to accept their request. I had been fighting a war on 3 fronts - Novgorod to the east, Lithuania to the south, and Poland to the west - even Denmark would attack from the north from time to time, although they were not much of a threat, but because it took more than 20 turns of Poland's aggression for the Pope to finally call for an excommunication I decided that becomming Novgorod's vassal was in my best long-term interests.

I control the cities of Visby and Riga, along with castles in Vilnius, Turku, Uppsala, Konigsberg and finally Thorn, which removed a huge thorn in my side. Sorry. Once Poland was excommunicated and Novgorod became my parent nation, seizing Thorn was my first priority and I now control the majority of castles in NE Europe. As a result of their insolence once-powerful Poland was reduced to 2 provinces when the HRE followed in my footsteps by taking Stettin. Now that Poland has been rendered useless and eastern Europe is safe from Catholic heathens and Pagans, I can switch gears and once again focus on Novgorod...my good old protector. Having military access will allow me to easily march an army to the banks of their capitol. At least that's the plan.

But now my question and the reason for the thread, which wasn't to gloat, is there any harm in being someone's vassal? I have been Novgorod's vassal for approximatley 20 turns and all it seems to have done is remove their armies from my lands....I have not ever had a surplus of gold and when I check my financial chart it looks like I am not paying anything in diplomacy or tributes.... essentially it removed a threat and will allow me to take their capitol under the guise of being an ally, without having paid a dime....is that correct? If so then being a vassal can actually be quite useful.

[TheBard]

I assume it will irreparably damage your reputation, making future alliances, marriages, and trading rights difficult. But other factions don't trust you once you are large and powerful anyway, so maybe it doesn't matter.

[recentiy03]

I assume it will irreparably damage your reputation, making future alliances, marriages, and trading rights difficult. But other factions don't trust you once you are large and powerful anyway, so maybe it doesn't matter.

So should I just surround Novgorod and their westernmost castle with my armies and then end our relationship through a diplomat before I attack? Teutonic Order has no marriage alliances but trading rights, etc. could still be an issue...I called for a ceasefire with Poland and then gave them an alliance for free (they're bankrupt) to act as a Catholic buffer or shield when I attack Novgorod...who is currently a top-6 faction.

As for the larger part of my question...if I don't see any payments on my chart outside of the usual 1,000 or so for corruption then essentially being a vassal can be a good strategic move, right? Under what circumstances would I be paying them money as a vassal because I have been contructing new buildings and raising new armies, so it isn't like I am totally bankrupt...is that because I don't have an actual surplus?

[Gogolometro]

Suggetion, keep Novgorod as it is. First are powerfull, second will damage all your diplomacy, and last, they have huge teritory, hard to control. Better keep this way.
If I have a choise I never accept to be vassal. But if you are, imagine they will face mongols, this help you a lot. Plus, Scandinavia is a more nice place to make awar in teutonic style.

[recentiy03]

Suggetion, keep Novgorod as it is. First are powerfull, second will damage all your diplomacy, and last, they have huge teritory, hard to control. Better keep this way.
If I have a choise I never accept to be vassal. But if you are, imagine they will face mongols, this help you a lot. Plus, Scandinavia is a more nice place to make awar in teutonic style.

I don't know who else to attack because Norway and HRE are long-time allies and now Poland is an ally. TBH I would love to take Kalmar, although it looks like Norway will beat me to it. I think Denmark was excommunicated because it is their final provice....HRE should be excommunicated soon, they're the 2nd most powerful faction in the game (all at the cost of Catholic factions), but right now they're a good ally. Novgorod has a border with the Mongols and it is only a matter of time before they shrink further. If I take their westernmost castle and Novgorod, they'll be under fire from both sides and I won't be pissing off the Pope.

[Amaranth]

"Rise and rise again until lambs become lions."

[Medkirtys]

It pretty much will mean you will never have allies again, so it means war unless you wipe em out, and then someone else attacks you, and you wipe em out, and then someone else attacks you, and you wipe em out, and then someone else attacks you, and you wipe em out, and then someone else attacks you, and you wipe em out, and then someone else attacks you, and you wipe em out, yes, i copy pasted, but no, it's not spam, it's how total war works

[recentiy03]

It pretty much will mean you will never have allies again, so it means war unless you wipe em out, and then someone else attacks you, and you wipe em out, and then someone else attacks you, and you wipe em out, and then someone else attacks you, and you wipe em out, and then someone else attacks you, and you wipe em out, and then someone else attacks you, and you wipe em out, yes, i copy pasted, but no, it's not spam, it's how total war works

Even if I end the vassalage before I attack? I'm playing without BGR and with 4/10 backstab, not 2/10, I can't remember if that is Savage of Gracul, although my reputation is currently sitting at "Dubious," which I don't quite get because I haven't actually backstabbed anyone in the game. I think the Teutonic Order is naturally disliked or something...it is really hard for me to get alliances with Catholic nations even though I am one! I haven't attacked any Catholics, either, outside of Poland, in which case I was only reclaming stuff that took and more often than not it was out of defense.

[Mornai]

I've read that as long as you are at war, your reputation constantly drops(and the drop per war is higher than the raise per alliance) so that might be why you're Dubious.

I was a vassal once...that is until my master faction stole 70k florins from me immediately afterwards..never gonna be a vassal again, that's for sure.

Since it doesn't seem to be happening to you.. hmm. I think the master faction in the vassalage determines who you go to war with and who you ally with, but I'm not sure on that part. And if you're a vassal with an Orthodox faction, that's sure to piss off the pope right?

[recentiy03]

Surprisingly the Pope wasn't too mad that I was Novgorod's vassal nearly 20 turns, even though they're Orthodox, because I had enough Papal favor to call a crusade during that span more than once. In a bizzare stroke of luck I didn't have to break my vassalage through battle because the turn before my troops landed on Novgorod's shore they decided to attack Poland...since Poland was my newly acquired ally I decided to side with Poland, which ended my relationship with Novgorod...but here is where it gets weird, right after I ended my relationship with Novgorod as a result of their war with Poland Norway decided to end our alliance in favor of their alliance with Novgorod! Once Norway left their alliance with me the HRE attacked Poland and I had to pick the HRE over Poland! It was hilarious....hilarious but somewhat crappy, because I've gone from 4 allies to 1 and the one ally is hated by the Pope...siding with HRE brought my Papal favor from 8/10 to 3/10...HRE is also 3/10....although I managed to sack Novgord AND Pskov, so Nogorod is now less of an issue than excommunicaiton from the Pope.