TROM2 - Feedback and Suggestions

[Pope_Fred_I]

Also: this is a bug
In a navel battle as the French against the Russians, one of my frigates' cannons stopped working. On closer look, all the cannons were facing odd directions at 50 degree angles, and was useless for most of the fighting.

Bahaha...this would indeed be a small inconvenience.

[Surveyor K]

Strangely the new morale pack doesn't show up on my modmanager. I have it installed in my data files where all the other TROM files are.
EDIT: nevermind got it working.

[Yarkis de Bodemloze]

To anybody who downloaded the moral changes, what's your impression? I hadn't much time to play but had one big battle between my Prussians and 1 1/2 stacks of Oldenburg, and I think the moral changes make for a more interesting gameplay. Artillery has a noticeable effect now and can be used against already weakened units to drive them away. And I think the changes don't favour the player. I had quite some losses in this battle and got some of my units routed.

[Pope_Fred_I]

To anybody who downloaded the moral changes, what's your impression? I hadn't much time to play but had one big battle between my Prussians and 1 1/2 stacks of Oldenburg, and I think the moral changes make for a more interesting gameplay. Artillery has a noticeable effect now and can be used against already weakened units to drive them away. And I think the changes don't favour the player. I had quite some losses in this battle and got some of my units routed.

I haven't had much opportunity to use it yet (I just started a new campaign as Great Britain, so I've had very little occasion for land battles), but in one battle against the Dutch I did notice that the enemy infantry seemed to be effected far more than I was used to by howitzer fire. This may have been the morale changes, or it may just have been that a lot of the enemy infantry were crappy garrison troops - I'm not sure.

One thing I did want to comment on however: do some of the British infantry units have less ammunition than others? I've particularly noticed that the KGL and Guards tend to run out of ammunition in almost every battle. Maybe it's just because they're in the thick of the fighting, I'm not sure.

[Yarkis de Bodemloze]

One thing I did want to comment on however: do some of the British infantry units have less ammunition than others? I've particularly noticed that the KGL and Guards tend to run out of ammunition in almost every battle. Maybe it's just because they're in the thick of the fighting, I'm not sure.

They have a high reload rate and spend their ammunition quicker.

[Edax]

They have a high reload rate and spend their ammunition quicker.

That reminds me, I've noticed that men garrisoned in buildings tend to spend their ammunition like five times faster then a standard unit firing with all muskets brought to bear. Garrisoned men tend to have a slightly higher kill ratio, maybe they kill 30% more, but that's not worth 500% the ammunition I find. So why do garrisoned men use ammo so quickly? Ususally only half the unit if firing throught the windows, the other half just stands around doing nothing.

On a differnt note, I think more care should be put forth on part of balancing the AI. My Napoleon army (one stack), fortified in Vienna, has in the course of 6 turns repelled 3 stacks of Prussia armies. For my troubles on the 7th turn, the Prussians send two stacks at once, in an attempt to overwhelm me with sheer number before I can even catch my breath. Is this realistic? In the course of 7 turns, Prussia has attacked me with twice as many soldiers as my entire French Empire has put together. And this attack doesn't even leave Prussia weakened. From what my rake shows, Berlin still has two stacks guarding it. It seems to me that sending tons of the AI soldiers to their death seem to accually work to it's advantage, as I end up having to pay every turn from the raids and damage to my fort, while the AI and just churn out more armies at what must be no cost.
And the fact is that my armies are funded mostly from trade resouces, while Prussia does not. I think you need to make the AI pay more for it's armies, cause this is getting ridiculous! I feel like France is a minor power against an entire world of super-powers! It's kinda annoying that all my armies (expect the one I have guarding Paris) is bogged down in enemy sieges. By the time they recover from the battle, another stack just comes and seiges again. I haven't been able to invade anything for a while now.

4 Stacks, just for a minor territory, it'd take hours to take all that down...And no reward. I'd rather have more AI navies then armies, cause at least you can capture their ships or earn prize money!

[Edax]

To anybody who downloaded the moral changes, what's your impression? I hadn't much time to play but had one big battle between my Prussians and 1 1/2 stacks of Oldenburg, and I think the moral changes make for a more interesting gameplay. Artillery has a noticeable effect now and can be used against already weakened units to drive them away. And I think the changes don't favour the player. I had quite some losses in this battle and got some of my units routed.

I like it.

[Surveyor K]

I tested the pack in a few of battles which I fought in my Austrian campaign. Artillery definetly is a lot more effective and easily routs low level units. I also noticed when fighting against the French that even their attack columns and line infantry where easily routed, they only managed to fire a volley or two. For me this made the battle too easy. The French weren't led by a high star rating general and the general was far from the fighting (not giving the morale boost to AI troops?) To me it also seems that cavalry seem a lot more powerful now, maybe even a bit too much.

When I fought against Napoleon the French infantry put up much more of a fight. So I'm undecided yet if the new morale values are to my taste or not. I still think that canister shot should be effective in stopping enemy infantry and causing them physical and morale damage aswell.

[konscript]

1. I'm too fluent in english - so sorry for some mistakes in writing.

2. I'm a bit confused about CAI in TROM2 (played vanilla too short to compare) - in about 60 turn of play (Russia), after whole Balkans under Tzar heel and boring (France crushing Austria from time to time, Prussia advancing at Amsterdam) I decided to help my "allies" and decided to raid Napoleon to cripple His economy to leave nothing but a burned soil - so I've made a desant with one full stack army at Corsica - France did nothing, made a desant at Provance, conquerd Tulon, Bordaux, Brittany-Caen (made Protectorate) - France did nothing (2 full stacks defended Paris, rest (8) stacks stays in Northen Italy, Czech, Germany defending terrian) - there where no army, only citezin militia. Later stroke and smashed Spain and gave all iberina provinces to Catalonia (my Protectorate). As I'm too powerfull England, Prusia and Austria declared war to me (that was logical at least - bravo for AI), so I left France by sea: France did nothing - all my (and my protectorates) cities are quite prone to ride, and Napoleon is still defending in Italy, Gemany and Paris - when he could easely regain all and rebuild (as Prussia and Austria are at war with me and now central europe is a center of conflict and nothing should be stopping Napoleon to recover).
In the end - GB invided Corisca with 2 full stucks - gain control of city and....... after 30 turs they are sitting there, do nothing, while Nelson is boring near Gibraltar.

Any thoughts about scripted moves and tactics?

[Yarkis de Bodemloze]

@Ltflak

I never noticed that units in buildings spend their ammo quicker. If so, it's a vanilla bug. Concerning the situation with Prussia: Where are your armies? You already crushed Austria and you have 11 000 gold in your coffers. You should have more stacks then one for offensive purposes and be able to counterattack after beating back the Prussians.

@konscript
The CAI is not very flexible. It usually needs a lot of time to retake territories and dealing with manouvers you describe. I mean you outmanouvered France by invading it from behind while their forces were occupied by Austria and Prussia. To make the CAI defend everything I would have to give it much more money, otherwise it will only defend and not attack. Im may have to make the Ottomans and the French AI a bit stronger though. Also, Russia has a very favorable position with only a one big frontline.

[Edax]

@Ltflak

I never noticed that units in buildings spend their ammo quicker. If so, it's a vanilla bug. Concerning the situation with Prussia: Where are your armies? You already crushed Austria and you have 11 000 gold in your coffers. You should have more stacks then one for offensive purposes and be able to counterattack after beating back the Prussians.

@konscript
The CAI is not very flexible. It usually needs a lot of time to retake territories and dealing with manouvers you describe. I mean you outmanouvered France by invading it from behind while their forces were occupied by Austria and Prussia. To make the CAI defend everything I would have to give it much more money, otherwise it will only defend and not attack. Im may have to make the Ottomans and the French AI a bit stronger though. Also, Russia has a very favorable position with only a one big frontline.

My other stack is in Denmark, either fending off stacks sent by England every 6 turns, or fending off raiding parties from Mecklenburg. The fact the minor nations can afford two whole stacks just for their minor terriortry, makes me wonder how they can recruit so much without have a trade fleet. I'd understand why the Dutch, Sweden, Denmark and the Portuguese would have two stacks, they have access to trade nodes. Other minor nations I think need to be downgraded to just one stack. Giving them two is like giving the equivilient of France having two stacks for each of it's own terrirtories. Pound for pound, minor nations have the strongest militaries.
I have another three quarter stack in the Balkins which can't leave because the Ottoman Empire attacks regularly. I have a partial stack in France which I'm afraid of using because England just keeps attacking me everywhere on the northern coast. Is I attack from Denmark (which by the way, your misson didn't work, I didn't gain any ships by taking it, and yes I had the port under my control by a hussar) Melkenburg has a bigger army then my full stack. And I know that if I do win, my army will be weakened and Berlin will surely send two stacks against it. Just not viable. (Maybe you should make my protectortes slightly more aggresive in helping my offensives?) Just from what I can see on my side of the English Channel, England has 3 full stacks just sitting around waiting for ships. (Luckly I just sank Nelson's 18 ship combat fleet a turn ago) Reason I have a lot of money is because I sank said fleet and earned a ton of prize money, but this has to go into building develeopment, cause I maxed out my technogies and need to go to the next tier. And I'm afraid that if I don't keep a pool of money, some random nation might sent a sloop to blockaid my port in France, can cause instant bankruptcy, and thus, my armies will crumble without even fighting. So basicly I'm pinned down everywhere, fending off attacks from everywhere. I don't even think it's possible to beat Prussia at the moment, taking down that double stack caused massive casulties, and at the end of the day, there were two more stacks waiting for me. (I think the AI gets a boost in replenishment, they seem to recover a lot from just a cruddy territory with no supply depots. So not only does it take more time for me to recover, the AI can just use the time to rebuild the army using it's secret discounts, and nothing is achieved (except the occastional exp gain, or lost regiement) from the battle.
The only good that's come out of this that I can see, is that the British accually defend Gibraltar with half a stack. That I think is realistic.
Prehaps if you increase the limits on the Imperial Guard, I might accually get more elite units onto the field that can handle these numbers. Middleguard and Oldguard unit caps should be brought up to 2. Youngguard up to 4. Grenadiers a Cheval calvery unit cap brought up to 2.

[konscript]

@Ltflak

@konscript
The CAI is not very flexible. It usually needs a lot of time to retake territories and dealing with manouvers you describe. I mean you outmanouvered France by invading it from behind while their forces were occupied by Austria and Prussia. To make the CAI defend everything I would have to give it much more money, otherwise it will only defend and not attack. Im may have to make the Ottomans and the French AI a bit stronger though. Also, Russia has a very favorable position with only a one big frontline.

Mainly It's understood - still it's a shy, why CIA can't do the same thing (Do The Thing, That No One Normal Would Do) - or even after doing it (D-DAY at Corsica with 2 stacks) It stays there - like The Plan (for GB) was to gain control of an island, and not to invade France from the back. I'm not too familiar with mechanisms of NTW, but i'm affraid that CAI will not do nothing unexpected (unhistorical?)- like France invading Spain (OK not a good exaple ), Spain at war with Portugal, Sweden thretening northen Russia, or in general naval invasion?

[Surveyor K]

After playing some more with the new morale values, I have come to the conclusion that the old values are better to my taste. I fought many battles in my Austrian campaign with the new values, then reloaded a save game and fought those battles again without the pack. My current Austrian campaign has been great fun. You have done some excellent work with this mod!

[Surveyor K]

In my Austrian campaign the Spanish actually landed a full stack on the cost of the Adriatic sea and tried to march on Vienna. On the other hand the year is 1809 and I haven't yet seen Britain take any french territories, maybe they have tried but failed, as there is no "toggle fow" command in Ntw, I should probably send a spy near the English channel and see if Britain is actually trying to invade.

[Edax]

I also notice that the AI overpiles on recruiting calvery, having up to 8 regiements in a stack. This makes battles for the AI impossible to win, but also gives them the ability to cause terrible damage for like half a minute in a battle. In my opinion not a fair tradeoff. The AI can't win without sufficient infantry, and with so much calvery, strategy is thrown out the window. Doesn't matter how elite, well positioned, or well supported your infantry is in square, it wont stand up to 6 units of heavy calvery thrown in a suicidial charge at the single unit, causing me nothing but irritation. Added to the fact that the AI has tons of army stacks to waste, I feel like I'm fighting the Mongul Horde...

[Pope_Fred_I]

I also notice that the AI overpiles on recruiting calvery, having up to 8 regiements in a stack. This makes battles for the AI impossible to win, but also gives them the ability to cause terrible damage for like half a minute in a battle. In my opinion not a fair tradeoff. The AI can't win without sufficient infantry, and with so much calvery, strategy is thrown out the window. Doesn't matter how elite, well positioned, or well supported your infantry is in square, it wont stand up to 6 units of heavy calvery thrown in a suicidial charge at the single unit, causing me nothing but irritation. Added to the fact that the AI has tons of army stacks to waste, I feel like I'm fighting the Mongul Horde...

Agreed on the entire point about the cavalry. I haven't seen it so much in my British campaign, but as Prussia it was quite evident that there weren't any horses left in France, because they were all being ridden out to attack me!

[Yarkis de Bodemloze]

My other stack is in Denmark, either fending off stacks sent by England every 6 turns, or fending off raiding parties from Mecklenburg. The fact the minor nations can afford two whole stacks just for their minor terriortry, makes me wonder how they can recruit so much without have a trade fleet. I'd understand why the Dutch, Sweden, Denmark and the Portuguese would have two stacks, they have access to trade nodes. Other minor nations I think need to be downgraded to just one stack. Giving them two is like giving the equivilient of France having two stacks for each of it's own terrirtories. Pound for pound, minor nations have the strongest militaries.
I have another three quarter stack in the Balkins which can't leave because the Ottoman Empire attacks regularly. I have a partial stack in France which I'm afraid of using because England just keeps attacking me everywhere on the northern coast. Is I attack from Denmark (which by the way, your misson didn't work, I didn't gain any ships by taking it, and yes I had the port under my control by a hussar) Melkenburg has a bigger army then my full stack. And I know that if I do win, my army will be weakened and Berlin will surely send two stacks against it. Just not viable. (Maybe you should make my protectortes slightly more aggresive in helping my offensives?) Just from what I can see on my side of the English Channel, England has 3 full stacks just sitting around waiting for ships. (Luckly I just sank Nelson's 18 ship combat fleet a turn ago) Reason I have a lot of money is because I sank said fleet and earned a ton of prize money, but this has to go into building develeopment, cause I maxed out my technogies and need to go to the next tier. And I'm afraid that if I don't keep a pool of money, some random nation might sent a sloop to blockaid my port in France, can cause instant bankruptcy, and thus, my armies will crumble without even fighting. So basicly I'm pinned down everywhere, fending off attacks from everywhere. I don't even think it's possible to beat Prussia at the moment, taking down that double stack caused massive casulties, and at the end of the day, there were two more stacks waiting for me. (I think the AI gets a boost in replenishment, they seem to recover a lot from just a cruddy territory with no supply depots. So not only does it take more time for me to recover, the AI can just use the time to rebuild the army using it's secret discounts, and nothing is achieved (except the occastional exp gain, or lost regiement) from the battle.
The only good that's come out of this that I can see, is that the British accually defend Gibraltar with half a stack. That I think is realistic.

I think you are trying to defend too much territory, while Prussia has only a small front to you and can throw anything that way. Several ideas:

- Give away the Balkans (peace treaty with the Ottomans?) to free your stack there.
- If you sank Nelsons fleet, the other British fleet are probably rather weak. Contain the British at their island and blockade the only Prussian harbor. They may go temporarily bankrupt.
- I also would give up Denmark to free more troops. If you beat Prussia, the war is pretty much decided. Russia alone won't be able to stand against you, and Britain is a pain in the back but not a real threat on the continent.

The CAIhas a +5% replenishment bonus everywhere. However, Prussia also has a -2% penalty,while French generals have a +2% bonus, so you should be nearly equal. Keep in mind that depots give global bonuses too.

Btw I think i fixed the mission script to aquire the Danish fleet.

After playing some more with the new morale values, I have come to the conclusion that the old values are better to my taste. I fought many battles in my Austrian campaign with the new values, then reloaded a save game and fought those battles again without the pack. My current Austrian campaign has been great fun. You have done some excellent work with this mod!

I will for shure add the changes for muskets and artillery, but I am undecided about the changes to recent casualities. What exactly was better with the old values?

I also notice that the AI overpiles on recruiting calvery, having up to 8 regiements in a stack. This makes battles for the AI impossible to win, but also gives them the ability to cause terrible damage for like half a minute in a battle. In my opinion not a fair tradeoff. The AI can't win without sufficient infantry, and with so much calvery, strategy is thrown out the window. Doesn't matter how elite, well positioned, or well supported your infantry is in square, it wont stand up to 6 units of heavy calvery thrown in a suicidial charge at the single unit, causing me nothing but irritation. Added to the fact that the AI has tons of army stacks to waste, I feel like I'm fighting the Mongul Horde...

8 units of cavalry is definitly too much and not intended by me. It may have to do with a small change I made to unit compositions, that should lead to raiding parties being composed out of cavarly mainly. But it looks like this didn't work anyway, so I will revert the change.

[Edax]

I think you are trying to defend too much territory, while Prussia has only a small front to you and can throw anything that way. Several ideas:

- Give away the Balkans (peace treaty with the Ottomans?) to free your stack there.
- If you sank Nelsons fleet, the other British fleet are probably rather weak. Contain the British at their island and blockade the only Prussian harbor. They may go temporarily bankrupt.
- I also would give up Denmark to free more troops. If you beat Prussia, the war is pretty much decided. Russia alone won't be able to stand against you, and Britain is a pain in the back but not a real threat on the continent.

The CAIhas a +5% replenishment bonus everywhere. However, Prussia also has a -2% penalty,while French generals have a +2% bonus, so you should be nearly equal. Keep in mind that depots give global bonuses too.

I think you may be right about the Balkins, but I'm still not conivnced that the AI should be allowed to recruit so much. The Prussians have a full stack in all their cities, and yet Berlin's recruitment slots have been maxed. Essentually, the Prussians have the ability of unlimited armies is seems like, the only way to shut them down is to attack with several stacks at once. I'm not sure blockadeing will help, they only get like 2000 income from it, that can't possibly fund 14,000 in game troops. It seems to me that there's no penaty for the AI to just throw away troops since it can just recruit them again in 3 turns.

Also, don't underestimate Britian, they have several stacks just waiting in England, dispite the fact that I had captured their tradefleet long ago. Seriously, why does the AI get to pay only half the upkeep as I do? (even on easy mode)
In terms of supply, I think 5% is too much, it seems much higher. The combo of having a much larger army and being able to replenish them much faster is what's stalling me. I attack a stack, drive it back. Two turns later, that same army with only 8 units left attacks with another stack backing it up. I drive both back again. Before I can complete my siege, another two stacks attack, and this is just way too much for an army to handle. (Probably has to do with enemy calvery, fight 3 armies at once, all which have strong calvery, means having to deal with multiple directions on the map, whose deployment zone is within a city, so cannons are no help. I ended up winning only because I had howizters with me.)
My Napoleon stack is in friendly territory with a maxed out supply depot, while the Prussia, who just pushed Napoleon back with 2 more suprise stacks, seem to recover only slightly less in a territory with no supply depot, and no farms. Building up that supply depot with 20 turns seems to only have put me on even ground with the AI...

Also, I really really like the new moral values. Now I can accually drive off enemy artillery with massed fire! Before the AI would just walk it's cannons to like 15 feet of my fort, and form the sweetest target for my howizers. Now I can get them all to run away form just a few barrages. Before, didn't matter how many times you shot at them, or how many died. Even with only 6 survivors, you had to charge some armed citizenry at them to drive them off. Plus, using massed grapeshot, can have a real effect against infantry lines! They accually run before they can get into melee with 5 battries of grapeshot firing into them! Plus, it's not always the same story, if their general is with them rallying, their infantry will stand and fight! Accually seems like a big step towards realism!

[Surveyor K]

With the new values the AI only manages to shoot a few times, sometimes not at all, before their morale brakes and they flee. For me this makes the battles too easy and somewhat boring. The other issue is that cavalry is too powerful, maybe because of the morale penalty of suffering many casulties in short time. This causes most cavalry charges to break the enemy instantly. I like how a well executed cavalry charge almost always breaks the enemy, but the there is a short melee before that. In this melee you lose some of your cavalry and thus can't go routing every unit with the same single cavalry unit.

[Yarkis de Bodemloze]

The AI needs a certain amount of units, otherwise it will only defend it's cities. Giving the same amount to the player would make the game much to easy. TROM2 may be difficult at times, but the advantages the CAI gets are not unfair and limited. Anyway, I will add a 'even easier economy' submod to the next version of TROM2 as well as an optional moral submod. With the latter casualities will have a stronger impact on moral, and units will rout with less casualities. Both should make battles and the campaign easier. The standard TROM2 version will keep the current challenge.