TROM2 - Feedback and Suggestions

[Edax]

After playing the Ottoman Empire for 111 turns, I feel that the A.O.R. recruitment system is a little weak...
How bout an AOR Crimean unit? The region is 60% Islamic, therefore willing to take up the cause of the Ottoman Empire if taken from the Russians!
How bout making some exceptions to European units? The Hungairan Hussars, the Hussar original, is a regional unit unique to Hungary, usually one of the first counrties I invade. (This however, should be the only Hussar unit recruitable by the Ottomans.)
Prehaps the Swiss might be willing to fight for the infidels for a slightly elevated price?
Maybe add a camel unit at trade ports?
And prehaps you could make a new mission to take Moscow with the reward being Unicorn Technology. That would be certainly fun and intresting.

I also think religous unrest could be toned down a little more, I'm still noticing religous unrest as high as 7 in parts like Lithuania (maybe add another tech that futher reduces religous unrest?), and because of this, I tend to give the regions away to my protectorates, it's kinda ridiculous. Half of Austria is owned by my protectorate Italy, Half of Russia used to be a part of protectorate Courland before being sandwiched by Russia and Prussia, and my attempt at taking Moscow has left a trail terrorties I've given to protectorate Crimean Khanate, the only new terroratories I've been able to hold on to is just Kiev and that region north-east of Vienna. Prehaps you can grant the Goverment buildings of the Ottomans an extra repression bonus? Cause I can't keep these territories. In fact, it seems even on "normal" Prussia can afford a full army stack for every territory it owns thus giving it excellent happiness from garrison, while at best I can only have a third of that and must constantly juggle unrest.

[Edax]

Ohh, here's an idea, because you can give the AI it's own light infantry, you can make the standard rifleman capable of forming line like standard troops whilst still keeping the light infantry tactics toggled. Then you can give the AI it's own rifleman with the light infantry tactics toggled on so the AI will properly skrimish, while I get to deploy rifleman with my army.


Also (Possibly Bug) For Ottoman Empire: You can recruit Cedid riflesman in foreign lands, but not Cedid light infantry. Kinda odd.

[Yarkis de Bodemloze]

I installed TROM last night and I just want to thank everyone involved in this mod. I’m delighted with how it plays. It seems to be based on realism especially with regards to projectiles and because of that the battles are much more realistic. At last someone has had the Vision to include the Famous Northern Irish Inniskilling Dragoons. No Napoleonic game would be complete without them.
Please Please consider also including the 27th Inniskilling regiment of foot sometime.

The piece here about their exploits at Waterloo is well worth reading. The Duke of Wellington said the Inniskillings saved the centre of the British line. In other words if it hadn’t been for the 27th Inniskillings Reg foot holding their ground the battle of Waterloo would probably have been lost.
http://www.royalirishrangers.co.uk/ennis.html

Battle honours

http://www.inniskillingsmuseum.com/the-regiments-2/battle-honours/battle-honours-of-the-royal-inniskilling-fusiliers

Well done everyone involved and I look forward to further updates.

Thanks for the praise! And good idea for a regiment with extra high moral.

After playing the Ottoman Empire for 111 turns, I feel that the A.O.R. recruitment system is a little weak...
How bout an AOR Crimean unit? The region is 60% Islamic, therefore willing to take up the cause of the Ottoman Empire if taken from the Russians!
How bout making some exceptions to European units? The Hungairan Hussars, the Hussar original, is a regional unit unique to Hungary, usually one of the first counrties I invade. (This however, should be the only Hussar unit recruitable by the Ottomans.)
Prehaps the Swiss might be willing to fight for the infidels for a slightly elevated price?
Maybe add a camel unit at trade ports?
And prehaps you could make a new mission to take Moscow with the reward being Unicorn Technology. That would be certainly fun and intresting.

I also think religous unrest could be toned down a little more, I'm still noticing religous unrest as high as 7 in parts like Lithuania (maybe add another tech that futher reduces religous unrest?), and because of this, I tend to give the regions away to my protectorates, it's kinda ridiculous. Half of Austria is owned by my protectorate Italy, Half of Russia used to be a part of protectorate Courland before being sandwiched by Russia and Prussia, and my attempt at taking Moscow has left a trail terrorties I've given to protectorate Crimean Khanate, the only new terroratories I've been able to hold on to is just Kiev and that region north-east of Vienna. Prehaps you can grant the Goverment buildings of the Ottomans an extra repression bonus? Cause I can't keep these territories. In fact, it seems even on "normal" Prussia can afford a full army stack for every territory it owns thus giving it excellent happiness from garrison, while at best I can only have a third of that and must constantly juggle unrest.

It sounds like you are doing well despite the difficulties. But I see if I either mod the religious unrest or add another technology like "Religious freedom". Would even fit because the Ottoman empire was a multicultural conglomerate anyway and unlike christian countries much more tolerant. The amount of AI stacks will get slightly tuned down in the next version.

Ohh, here's an idea, because you can give the AI it's own light infantry, you can make the standard rifleman capable of forming line like standard troops whilst still keeping the light infantry tactics toggled. Then you can give the AI it's own rifleman with the light infantry tactics toggled on so the AI will properly skirmish, while I get to deploy rifleman with my army.


Also (Possibly Bug) For Ottoman Empire: You can recruit Cedid riflesman in foreign lands, but not Cedid light infantry. Kinda odd.

Fixed the recruitment of the riflemans. For making seperate AI and player skirmishers: will see, but I have only that much time and other stuff is more urgent in the moment.

[Edax]

Thanks for the praise! And good idea for a regiment with extra high moral.



It sounds like you are doing well despite the difficulties. But I see if I either mod the religious unrest or add another technology like "Religious freedom". Would even fit because the Ottoman empire was a multicultural conglomerate anyway and unlike christian countries much more tolerant. The amount of AI stacks will get slightly tuned down in the next version.

Does this also mean you'll consider making an AOR Crimean unit? I'd figure it's one of the few ways for the Ottomans to get a European unit that accually follows Islam. Plus, it would probably give me a defence against calvery a bit sooner in the campaign.

Also, I've come across a problem at the capital that there are so many unit to recruit, I can no longer even select the Cedit Dragoons (I forget what they're called) and recruit them anymore.

And finally, can you raise some of the melee scores the Ottoman Calvary? They can't field anything better then a melee score of 12. The French Cuirassiers alone can do 13. The French elite calvery are high as 15, but the highest of the high in the Ottoman army is 12. That's just 2 better then most of the their light calvery. I think Eastern scimitars were well known for their enhanced ability to cut, and were rightly feared by the West. Was probably one of the reasons a division of Mamalukes demolished some of the finest of the Czar's horsemen at Austerliz. At the moment, the Mamalukes don't score much better then the Deli horsemen... Therefore I propose that the Mamalukes and the Elite horseman get a melee score boost, to the ranges of 13-15.

[Yarkis de Bodemloze]

Does this also mean you'll consider making an AOR Crimean unit? I'd figure it's one of the few ways for the Ottomans to get a European unit that accually follows Islam. Plus, it would probably give me a defence against calvery a bit sooner in the campaign.

Actually the crimean vanilla units are all wrong. They should be like ottoman units and include tartars.

Also, I've come across a problem at the capital that there are so many unit to recruit, I can no longer even select the Cedit Dragoons (I forget what they're called) and recruit them anymore.

I will disable the the old style ottoman artillery as soon as the new Nizam-i-cedid versions are available. This frees 3 slots. Can you do me a favour and count how many units are recruitable there?

And finally, can you raise some of the melee scores the Ottoman Calvary? They can't field anything better then a melee score of 12. The French Cuirassiers alone can do 13. The French elite calvery are high as 15, but the highest of the high in the Ottoman army is 12. That's just 2 better then most of the their light calvery. I think Eastern scimitars were well known for their enhanced ability to cut, and were rightly feared by the West. Was probably one of the reasons a division of Mamalukes demolished some of the finest of the Czar's horsemen at Austerliz. At the moment, the Mamalukes don't score much better then the Deli horsemen... Therefore I propose that the Mamalukes and the Elite horseman get a melee score boost, to the ranges of 13-15.

The Ottoman Silahtar Guard and the Siphai have weaker melee stats but they are lancers with a 10-12 point higher charge factor then other heavies. The Kapikulu Ulufeciler Cavalry is as strong as normal cuirassiers (the French cavalry is overall a bit better). The basic idea with the Ottomans is that their troops quality is not that high (which is historically correct I think) but they are cheaper, so you have to overcome your enemies with numbers and ingenuity. Also you have to research the Nizam-i-cedid refoms to get better western style troops. I doubt that eastern scimitars at that time were any better then western ones.

[Yarkis de Bodemloze]

I installed TROM last night and I just want to thank everyone involved in this mod. I’m delighted with how it plays. It seems to be based on realism especially with regards to projectiles and because of that the battles are much more realistic. At last someone has had the Vision to include the Famous Northern Irish Inniskilling Dragoons. No Napoleonic game would be complete without them.
Please Please consider also including the 27th Inniskilling regiment of foot sometime.

The piece here about their exploits at Waterloo is well worth reading. The Duke of Wellington said the Inniskillings saved the centre of the British line. In other words if it hadn’t been for the 27th Inniskillings Reg foot holding their ground the battle of Waterloo would probably have been lost.
http://www.royalirishrangers.co.uk/ennis.html

Battle honours

http://www.inniskillingsmuseum.com/the-regiments-2/battle-honours/battle-honours-of-the-royal-inniskilling-fusiliers

Well done everyone involved and I look forward to further updates.

[Edax]

Actually the crimean vanilla units are all wrong. They should be like ottoman units and include tartars.



I will disable the the old style ottoman artillery as soon as the new Nizam-i-cedid versions are available. This frees 3 slots. Can you do me a favour and count how many units are recruitable there?

31

The Ottoman Silahtar Guard and the Siphai have weaker melee stats but they are lancers with a 10-12 point higher charge factor then other heavies. The Kapikulu Ulufeciler Cavalry is as strong as normal cuirassiers (the French cavalry is overall a bit better). The basic idea with the Ottomans is that their troops quality is not that high (which is historically correct I think) but they are cheaper, so you have to overcome your enemies with numbers and ingenuity. Also you have to research the Nizam-i-cedid refoms to get better western style troops. I doubt that eastern scimitars at that time were any better then western ones.

That idea just doesn't work. At turn 145, I'm fighting Prussia. Even though my Empire is 3 times bigger then Prussia, they field 3 times as many soldiers as I do. I almost never outnumber my enemy, because they can always afford full stacks with supporting stacks to spare. I mean hell, I once saw Prussia guarding a banktown with 1 full stack in the town, 2 half stacks guarding bridges, and another full stack just hanging out near the road in range of the town. It's often me fighting SWARMS of enemies with my smaller armies (which also are of lesser quality). (I have to fight on Protectorate lands or in forts just to have a chance!) I figure the elite calvery should at least BE elite, even if the standard Ottoman troops are of less quality. Old societies tend to field better elite calvery units, just from a strong sense of tradition. For instance, their heavy sword calvery Circassian Mounted Swordsman have a melee score of 11, judging from the stats, you'd think they were light calvery. I figure at least the calvery of the Ottoman empire should be up to snuff, even if the infantry often isnt. Manalukes too, they should at least have a strong attack coupled with their speed, even if their defence is weak, that's what made them so deadly and unique compared to western calvery.

The only other way I see is to give them bigger unit sizes. Armed citizenry/line infantry would get raised to 200, calvery raised to 80, light infantry raised to 160. Other then that, I see no way that the Ottoman will get a number advantage against the AI in battle.

[Yarkis de Bodemloze]

I hear you. Here are some changes in 1.8 for the Ottomans:

- -40% religious unrest instead of -30% at the start of the campaign
- Kapikulu Ulufeciler Cavalry has +1 point added to all stats
- Circassian Swordsmen Cavalry is now as strong as standard cuirassiers
- Ottoman militia and irregulars are 12% cheaper and have a 12% lower upkeep
- The Ottomans get +500 other income (this represents taxes from the middle eastern provinces)
- Ottoman levy milita gets the garrison ability (forgot this in 1.7)
- Ottoman old style artillery will be disabled when Nizam-i-cedid artillery is available (frees UI recruitment slots)

EDIT: And the latest addition (with some educational value ):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Pope_Fred_I]

I realize that we covered this in a previous post, but I still think that grapeshot is underpowered. An infantry unit shouldn't be able to just rush a mass of guns with a frontal assault, at least not without getting massive pathways cut through its formation and taking heavy heavy casualties. It seems like in many of my battles the infantry just runs forward, undeterred as four or five guys fall down. I will try to get a picture of this in one of my next battles (I am a huge fan of close range artillery )

[Edax]

I realize that we covered this in a previous post, but I still think that grapeshot is underpowered. An infantry unit shouldn't be able to just rush a mass of guns with a frontal assault, at least not without getting massive pathways cut through its formation and taking heavy heavy casualties. It seems like in many of my battles the infantry just runs forward, undeterred as four or five guys fall down. I will try to get a picture of this in one of my next battles (I am a huge fan of close range artillery )

Well, the grapeshot blast of 2 batteries of 64lber cannons at close range will shatter a grenadier regiement instantly. The tradeoff is that it takes an eternity to reload. I do think that the reload time for horse artillery should be slight faster. I find that larger cannons make excellent offencive weapons, while smaller horse cannons make excellent defensive weapons. If you have 6 batteries of horse artillery, you should be able to rout an infantry advance within half a minute. Though I still find that this is enough time for infantry to march forward and blunder into the artillery...which can get pretty annoying. Is not the killing power that's the problem, is the lack of moral damage.

[Pope_Fred_I]

11 batteries of 12-lb foot artillery, routed by a frontal assault straight into the teeth of the canister (after my Hanoverian Line and Prussian grenadiers headed for the hills). Needless to say, I was practically in tears.

[Yarkis de Bodemloze]

Don't get offended, but I am actually happy that it works out like this in TROM2. I mean canister fire is a killer but unsupported artillery should not hold up a massive attack by itself, so just lining up 10 batteries and blowing the BAI to smithereens should not work. Otherwise the Grand Armee could not have stormed the redoubts at Borodino. Hope you enjoy the mod still.

[Edax]

Don't get offended, but I am actually happy that it works out like this in TROM2. I mean canister fire is a killer but unsupported artillery should not hold up a massive attack by itself, so just lining up 10 batteries and blowing the BAI to smithereens should not work. Otherwise the Grand Armee could not have stormed the redoubts at Borodino. Hope you enjoy the mod still.

I agree with you there, it's so annoying when I rout the AI, but he leaves behind 2-4 batteries of artillery behind, and my calvery is either routed, or heavily damaged, meaning I have to charge them with infantry. I'd be very sore if I lost with thousands of men against 16 guns after beating the enemy infantry, calvery and general minutes before.

[Pope_Fred_I]

Don't get offended, but I am actually happy that it works out like this in TROM2. I mean canister fire is a killer but unsupported artillery should not hold up a massive attack by itself, so just lining up 10 batteries and blowing the BAI to smithereens should not work. Otherwise the Grand Armee could not have stormed the redoubts at Borodino. Hope you enjoy the mod still.

Hmm, well...probably true. Good point. I do enjoy a good bridge defense with a mass battery of 12-lbers, however. Have to throw in a few 7-lb howitzers, too. Their performance is a little disappointing, but those explosions are way cool.

[Yarkis de Bodemloze]

I finally got the Spanish CAI going again. It turned out that the way I modfoldered the custom campaign in 1.7 somehow prevented the CAI from doing its proper job (at least the Spanish one). In 1.8 the CAI will be more active on land (the naval CAI is already very active). Here are some pics from my CAI testgame featuring the Spanish and the English fleet. Btw the Spanish took Piedmont because it was occupied by British forces.

[diadok]

i am disappointed in all empire/napoleon vanilla/mods, with the "campaign unit movement" : 23 for foot artillery, 34 (max) for light cavs, it's more than unrealistic.

would be better for example like :

20 for foot artillery, citizens/peasants
25 for infantry line, milice, grenadiers, horse artillery
30 for skyrmishers, light infantry, irregulars
50 for heavy cav
55 for dragoons, lancers
60 for light cavs, generals

something like that (even if i don't know really where should be horse artillery)

[Yarkis de Bodemloze]

i am disappointed in all empire/napoleon vanilla/mods, with the "campaign unit movement" : 23 for foot artillery, 34 (max) for light cavs, it's more than unrealistic.

would be better for example like :

20 for foot artillery, citizens/peasants
25 for infantry line, milice, grenadiers, horse artillery
30 for skyrmishers, light infantry, irregulars
50 for heavy cav
55 for dragoons, lancers
60 for light cavs, generals

something like that (even if i don't know really where should be horse artillery)

In TROM2 I reduced the marching speed of all land units by 20% (and increased the speed of ships by 20%) with a global multiplier. It may be possible to do this for artillery, infantry and cavalry separately, but I have to test that.

It's an interesting question how the marching speed of cavalry was compared to infantry. I am not shure if cavalry was really 50% faster then infantry over many days of campaigning. Maybe that is something for the historical research subforum.

EDIT: With some ingenious relabeling of effects it's indeed possible to change the movement speeds of unit categories globally without having to edit each single unit, which would be a chore because you have to do that for all starting units in the campaign files. I await your suggestions...

[Edax]

In TROM2 I reduced the marching speed of all land units by 20% (and increased the speed of ships by 20%) with a global multiplier. It may be possible to do this for artillery, infantry and cavalry separately, but I have to test that.

It's an interesting question how the marching speed of cavalry was compared to infantry. I am not shure if cavalry was really 50% faster then infantry over many days of campaigning. Maybe that is something for the historical research subforum.

EDIT: With some ingenious relabeling of effects it's indeed possible to change the movement speeds of unit categories globally without having to edit each single unit, which would be a chore because you have to do that for all starting units in the campaign files. I await your suggestions...

I worry that this will give the AI the ability to raid and disable all my towns with just a single unit of light calvary and still have time to make it make safely to their territory.

[diadok]

you can have some regiments of light cavalry to counter many attacks: some enemy units can make many destroy in your land, but you can intercept more units and faster, so all in all it will not be better or worst, but more realistic. but about what i see, raiding AI troops are not exclusively composed of cavalery, so this will not often happen.

With some ingenious relabeling of effects it's indeed possible to change the movement speeds of unit categories globally without having to edit each single unit, which would be a chore because you have to do that for all starting units in the campaign files. I await your suggestions...

sure, i don't know how to do that, as i have just edited unit stats land tables.

It's an interesting question how the marching speed of cavalry was compared to infantry. I am not shure if cavalry was really 50% faster then infantry over many days of campaigning. Maybe that is something for the historical research subforum.

about infantry : a roman army can walk on a good road usually 5km/hour, 35 kilometers per day (50 max if absolute necessity), and it is usually known that "it was not possible from fall of empire to the french revolution" : it's something like 16-20 kilometers before revolution and napolean wars. during this ones, with better logistic and lighter artillery, the "average distance" for "average army" is something like 25 kilometers per day.
example : napolean troops are walking 5km/hours, 30 kilometers/day during 27 days (24 walking + 3 steps, 700 kilometers) from boulogne camp (30 august) to spire (25 september). and before austerlitz, some french regiments walked much faster during many days, to succeed the large decisive manoeuvring.

about standart cavalry, the top max is considered as 10 km/hour for long distances (cavalry get three speed : 6,6 km/hour, 15 km/hour, 21km/hour).
--> and in the game it looks like they choose the slowest, so how can we use it in his strategic and tactical aspects on campaign map ? i hate to use few stacks of 4/5 cavs, which needs so many turns to join the rest of army, and the worst is to get this stacks that can't escape from big stacks that should never be able to catch them so easily.

for light cavs : they can do very long distances in few days, and it is the first reason why a general recruit them. that's why i think the stats given in vanilla are nothing more that a bad joke.

after some reading on web (i discover that for cavs it's really hard to find something) it looks like i may give less movement points to standart and heavy cavs (40/45 would be better than 50/55), and the same (60) for light cavs, as they can do much more in operations of covering retreat, raiding, but they can't do that during months, so it need a compromise (60 seems a good one to use it strategically without breaking some gameplay elements)

[Yarkis de Bodemloze]

I worry that this will give the AI the ability to raid and disable all my towns with just a single unit of light calvary and still have time to make it make safely to their territory.

Hm, Ltflak, interresting idea . I wonder if I can teach the AI to only use cavalry in small forces. I already removed artillery from forces below a strength of 4 and didn't see any negative influence on the force composition of bigger armies. That way, small AI raiding forces should be most of the time pure cavalry forces.

Anyway the AI raiding in TROM2 is tuned down, so you won't have to deal with swarms of cavalry raiders.

after some reading on web (i discover that for cavs it's really hard to find something) it looks like i may give less movement points to standart and heavy cavs (40/45 would be better than 50/55), and the same (60) for light cavs, as they can do much more in operations of covering retreat, raiding, but they can't do that during months, so it need a compromise (60 seems a good one to use it strategically without breaking some gameplay elements)

In NTW a turn has 14 days. While it seems to be possible for cavalry to be twice as quick as infantry over a short period of time, I doubt they can hold this speed up over longer time periods. I will put forward this question in the historical research forum to see what other people come up with. I think I will start with 50% movement point increase for all cavalry forces over the current values and see how this plays out. Not shure if I can handle horse artillery seperately without having to touch the unit values. I would give them a 30% movement point increase for now.