http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4502272.stm
By boycotting the elections, the opposition may have been rendered ineffective for a very long time. Now Hugo Chavez has the whole legislature.
Rebel of Jesusland
Venezuela's opposition is stupid...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4502272.stm
By boycotting the elections, the opposition may have been rendered ineffective for a very long time. Now Hugo Chavez has the whole legislature.
SecureROM is stupid....
Libertus
maybe not by not particapating they have shown that they think that the election is not free(fixed) and that there is no piont in particapating in a sham election all they would be doing with that would be legitmiaze chavez rule they are basically showing the people and teh world that chavez is an undemocratic leader
it actually a very well used strategy
You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom.
Civitate
Most of the opposition that is boycotting the election wouldn't stand a chance anyway according to polls. This way they just get more attention to the anti-Chavez cause. Smart move on their part I guess.
1) The creation of the world is the most marvelous achievement imaginable.
2) The merit of an achievement is the product of (a) its intrinsic quality, and (b) the ability of its creator.
3) The greater the disability (or handicap) of the creator, the more impressive the achievement.
4) The most formidable handicap for a creator would be non-existence.
5) Therefore if we suppose that the universe is the product of an existent creator we can conceive a greater being — namely, one who created everything while not existing.
6) Therefore, God does not exist.
Garbarsardar's love child, and the only child he loves. ^-^
Libertus
very smart move but the question is if it is a fair election who took this polls
igf it is a fair election which i doubt tehn the oppostion are being cry babies bacause they can't win but if they are fixed
tehn maybe this will raise teh world to take a stand
You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom.
Rebel of Jesusland
Originally Posted by Besart
the election was fair according to outside observers, the opposition are crybabies and they are going to pay for it through no representation. The opposition doesn't speak for the majority of Venezuelans and are constantly being defeated, so they resort to undemocratic means (ah um coup).
SecureROM is stupid....
Libertus
maybe so but i don't think chavez is such a good leader either but if teh people want him tehn i have no sympathy for the opposition
granted i don'tknow so much about chavez govermnet policy but based on some of his moves i don't think he is the best leader for teh people but if tehy want him then they can have him after all teh people decide like it should be in all countrys
You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom.
Rebel of Jesusland
all the bad numbers and the slowdown in the economy have been due to opposition activity more than Chavez's policies, with the coup and the strike. Right now, Venezuela is doing well and unemployment has dropped below the number when Hugo first took office and the economy is growing again. My only worries about Chavez is that he ties too much of the income to his social programs to oil (higher gas prices, the better the income for these programs) and the government is becoming a one party system (more to the weakness of the presidential system than to Hugo Chavez).
SecureROM is stupid....
Vicarius Provinciae
Isn't Chavez the guy who wasted all that money stageing a huge defensive drill to prepare for US invasion?
If so, I laugh at him.
Owned by LORD RAHL Centurion of the Legion of Rahl
Corporal's Corps bdh, Ironbrig4, The Thracian, Mudd, Maron, Happyho
RIP Corporal Gogian and Officer Atherly, your brothers will remember
Civitate
Him sending all the cheap oil to New York and such was kinda cool and unexpected, to me he just represents the backlash of south-central American population against the constant US intereferance throughout the last few decades. Hence all the support he has not only in his country, but throughout the continent, just look at the Mar del Palata riots when Bush was in town.
I think South America may be getting tired of getting raped by American corporations. Chavez is just the loudest of the voices of protest, but he's not the only coming from our latin American neighbors.
We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
"The politics of the Karl Rove era were designed to distract and divide the very people who would ordinarily be rebelling against the deterioration of their way of life. Working Americans have been repeatedly seduced at the polls by emotional issues such as the predictable mantra of “God, guns, gays, abortion, and the flag” while their way if life shifted ineluctably beneath their feet." - Senator Jim Webb
Vicarius
forgotten have you ever heard that just because some people are against the us ,doesnt mean there freedom fighters.
Research deeperinto hugo and youll find some astounashingly ugly qaulities
Let's just hope they were fascist communist kittens who were on their way to international fascist communist fair.
Civitate
I'm not defending Chavez, just saying he's the mouth of a growing Latin american movement, he's probably exploiting it to stay in power, but its hard to argue Chavez is worse than what Venezulua use to have, a military dictatorship.
We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
"The politics of the Karl Rove era were designed to distract and divide the very people who would ordinarily be rebelling against the deterioration of their way of life. Working Americans have been repeatedly seduced at the polls by emotional issues such as the predictable mantra of “God, guns, gays, abortion, and the flag” while their way if life shifted ineluctably beneath their feet." - Senator Jim Webb
Rebel of Jesusland
research deep and you find that he is actually improving Venenzuela...
SecureROM is stupid....
Darkness is the light
And research even deeper to find his dreams of some kind of "communal democracy" with participatory ecomomy and the whole nine yards.
If you have time read this. There is much more info on znet, as they always followed Venezuela very closely.
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarti...45&ItemID=9067
I find it is supercool. Although it reminds me a little bit of the Soviet (or socialist) system of the "council republic". But as we all know, the Soviet Union was a far cry from real socialism. Chavez wants to give some real power to these councils!
Finally, we have something fresh. A blend of democracy and socialism. An alternative system, that, should in work, could spread over Latin America, and be a real hope for humanity, a candle in the dead of the night that is capitalism. But there are lots of dangers. Will the populace accept it? Will Chavez refrain from getting to powerful himself? Will the Americans invade under old "domino theory" pretexts? They have already lost their hold over South America (except in Colombia).
What does Chomsky say? "If the US wasn't bogged down in Iraq, I would have expected the next invasion in the Andes region already under way."
Venezuela has oil, and is a vital source for the US. Bush already tried to coup Chavez away, but the people demanded his return (not that Chavez is himself above a little coup here and there)
But what is this about the opposition? They drop out of the elections?
They want to take legitimacy away from Chavez's government. They knew they couldn't win, so they simply gave Chavez absolute power to prove he is an absolute ruler. Then they can go to the US as the legitimate opposition demanding the change of an illegitimate regime. Nobody asks what the Venezuelans want however, seemingly only Chavez does. In his own way.
Civitate
You have nooooo clue how refreashing it is to see people bring up ParEcon and Micheal Albert on this board. This Venezuelan community movement might have the potential to dwarf the already well-established Argentinian movement.
1) The creation of the world is the most marvelous achievement imaginable.
2) The merit of an achievement is the product of (a) its intrinsic quality, and (b) the ability of its creator.
3) The greater the disability (or handicap) of the creator, the more impressive the achievement.
4) The most formidable handicap for a creator would be non-existence.
5) Therefore if we suppose that the universe is the product of an existent creator we can conceive a greater being — namely, one who created everything while not existing.
6) Therefore, God does not exist.
Garbarsardar's love child, and the only child he loves. ^-^
Darkness is the light
Although I have yet to see "The take", that Argentinian ParEcon movie written by Naomi Klein. Have you seen it? I think I have to read up on Argentinia ...
Last edited by PacSubCom; December 09, 2005 at 08:40 PM.
Gruffles
Here's a nice list of some of his accomplishments and some of the things he stands for:
1. Violated the constitution of Venezuela in force in 1999, his first year in office, in two fundamental ways: by having the Constituent Assembly, which had the sole legal function of writing a new constitution, usurp the powers of both the elected National Congress and the existing Supreme Court; further Chavez packed the Constituent Assembly with his supporters who, though winning only 42% of the votes, were mysteriously allocated 93% of the seats.
2. Forged public alliances with state sponsors of terrorism including Cuba, Iraq, and Iran, and provided since October 2000 subsidized oil to Cuba, enabling the Castro regime to obtain more than US $2 billion which it could use to support terrorism.
3. Supported terrorist organizations attacking nearby fragile democracies including the FARC in Colombia and radical anti-democratic groups seeking to destabilize Bolivia and Ecuador. This included clandestine support for Colonel Gutierrez and pro-Castro radicals who briefly overthrew the democratic government of Ecuador in January 2000. Colonel Gutierrez is now a leading candidate for the presidency in Ecuador and would likely follow in the pro-Castro path of Chavez.
4. Chavez is waging a revolution against poverty. It’s all talk. Poverty has increased by 20% or more in the last four years, and precisely because of Chavez’ policies.
5. Chavez is out to eliminate corruption. Just the opposite is the fact. The systemic incentives for corruption -- monopoly and secrecy -- have skyrocketed under Chavez. Immense amounts of public spending are not accounted for. The president has openly pledged to punish political enemies through the currency exchange system – a virtual announcement of planned corruption.
6. Chavez is fighting an oligarchy. Truth is, Chavez is the oligarchy. Read the dictionary definition of the term.
7. Chavez is president of all the people of Venezuela. No, he does not govern to unify Venezuela but to divide it with class warfare. There are millions of people the president does not represent and who he wants to drive out of the country.
8. Chavez is a democrat. No he is not. He was democratically elected, just as Hitler was. But at heart he is an autocrat like Castro.
9. There was a coup on April 11th, 2002 waged by terrorists. False. There was a coup on April 12th, 2002 waged by a few dozen idiots who hijacked a genuine and spontaneous public outrage by millions of peaceful demonstrators.
10. The media are leading the effort to remove Chavez from office. In fact, the media are following the effort by millions of Venezuelans to do so. The messenger is not the message. Take away the media, and the opposition to Chavez would not diminish by one iota.
11. Chavez is the victim of racism – a small group of rich white men want to cashier the dark-skinned president. This assertion is the height of cynicism. If only people of color were to vote in an election, Chavez would lose.
12. PDVSA will recover from the attack on knowledge, technology, finance and organizational culture it has been developing for 25 years. No it will not. The PDVSA of 2002 is gone, whether it can recover is doubtful.
13. Chavez is a leftist like Lula of Brazil or Gutierrez of Ecuador. No he is not. Like Castro, the president is obsessed with accumulating power, not using it for any purpose on the left, center or right.
It's no wonder those who admire Castro also admire this guy.
Faithfully under the patronage of the fallen yet rather amiable Octavian.
Smile! The better the energy you put in, the better the energy you will get out.
Darkness is the light
Lies
Define constitution. The constitution could have been made by fat cat oil barons in bed with Texas oil millionaires. "Elected" HaHAHA. And he even tried a coup in the 90s (94?) and spent 2 years in jail.
More lies.
Define terrorism. Compared to the US and Europe, Castro and Saddam are saints. And Chavez is the father, the son, and the holy ghost. And without fail at all.
All lies. Neoliberal lies. Transparent lies. Colombia a fledling democracy?
define democracy. define radical. In newspeak, democracy has a world of different meanings. And I would like to add that Bush is following the Anti-Castro path of Clinton, keeping up the great tradition of impoverishing the island of Cuba. Which is, as my party contacts report, much more important to any US Administration than the war on terror for some reason. And just another crime agains humanity. Must I remind you of illegal regime change attempts in the 60s?
Ah yeah, define stability. Stability for American fruit?
You parroter of Imperialist propaganda. Don't believe in lies!
define poverty. You the expert on Venezuelan domestic policy?
define corruption. What are you talking about?
define oligarchy. Of course he is the oligarchy, he and his cronies are the government, remember?
wow. see below. And: Driving millions out of the country? Now let's take a deep breath ...
Like Bushco.
Although Bushco wasn't even democratically elected.
Else: lies.
No terrorists. C.I.A.
The other day upon the stair
I saw a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there the other day
I guess he's from the C.I.A.Millions of Americans (and billions of others) don't support Bush and would like to remove him from office
Millions of Brits don't support Blair and would like to remove him from office
Millions of Russians don't support Putin and would like to remove him from office
Millions of Germans don't support Merkel and would like to remove her from office
...
What are you talking about?
Just like your torturing heroes?
Chavez is a couping South American military. So what? We'll see what he does if left alone. Hopefully without Colombia-Venezuelan proxy wars and US military intervention and a million dead. What you are telling us are convenient lies of the class enemy to dispose of Chavez, the hero of the workers and peasants of South America! Begone, Imperialist!
What is this about Castro? I admire Castro very much. He is one of the few true dictators left. I love Ghaddafi too. These guys are great! Too bad that Saddam will be killed soon, he should write his memoirs first. Or has he already? Milosevic had something too.It's no wonder those who admire Castro also admire this guy.
Last edited by PacSubCom; December 09, 2005 at 10:07 PM.
Rebel of Jesusland
1. A constitutional change that the majority of Venezuelans supported.Here's a nice list of some of his accomplishments and some of the things he stands for:
1. Violated the constitution of Venezuela in force in 1999, his first year in office, in two fundamental ways: by having the Constituent Assembly, which had the sole legal function of writing a new constitution, usurp the powers of both the elected National Congress and the existing Supreme Court; further Chavez packed the Constituent Assembly with his supporters who, though winning only 42% of the votes, were mysteriously allocated 93% of the seats.
2. Forged public alliances with state sponsors of terrorism including Cuba, Iraq, and Iran, and provided since October 2000 subsidized oil to Cuba, enabling the Castro regime to obtain more than US $2 billion which it could use to support terrorism.
3. Supported terrorist organizations attacking nearby fragile democracies including the FARC in Colombia and radical anti-democratic groups seeking to destabilize Bolivia and Ecuador. This included clandestine support for Colonel Gutierrez and pro-Castro radicals who briefly overthrew the democratic government of Ecuador in January 2000. Colonel Gutierrez is now a leading candidate for the presidency in Ecuador and would likely follow in the pro-Castro path of Chavez.
4. Chavez is waging a revolution against poverty. It’s all talk. Poverty has increased by 20% or more in the last four years, and precisely because of Chavez’ policies.
5. Chavez is out to eliminate corruption. Just the opposite is the fact. The systemic incentives for corruption -- monopoly and secrecy -- have skyrocketed under Chavez. Immense amounts of public spending are not accounted for. The president has openly pledged to punish political enemies through the currency exchange system – a virtual announcement of planned corruption.
6. Chavez is fighting an oligarchy. Truth is, Chavez is the oligarchy. Read the dictionary definition of the term.
7. Chavez is president of all the people of Venezuela. No, he does not govern to unify Venezuela but to divide it with class warfare. There are millions of people the president does not represent and who he wants to drive out of the country.
8. Chavez is a democrat. No he is not. He was democratically elected, just as Hitler was. But at heart he is an autocrat like Castro.
9. There was a coup on April 11th, 2002 waged by terrorists. False. There was a coup on April 12th, 2002 waged by a few dozen idiots who hijacked a genuine and spontaneous public outrage by millions of peaceful demonstrators.
10. The media are leading the effort to remove Chavez from office. In fact, the media are following the effort by millions of Venezuelans to do so. The messenger is not the message. Take away the media, and the opposition to Chavez would not diminish by one iota.
11. Chavez is the victim of racism – a small group of rich white men want to cashier the dark-skinned president. This assertion is the height of cynicism. If only people of color were to vote in an election, Chavez would lose.
12. PDVSA will recover from the attack on knowledge, technology, finance and organizational culture it has been developing for 25 years. No it will not. The PDVSA of 2002 is gone, whether it can recover is doubtful.
13. Chavez is a leftist like Lula of Brazil or Gutierrez of Ecuador. No he is not. Like Castro, the president is obsessed with accumulating power, not using it for any purpose on the left, center or right.
It's no wonder those who admire Castro also admire this guy.
2. Cuba, a state sponsor of terrorism!!!!
3. Why would he support FARC? Chavez's relations with Uribe are pretty good and has recently agreed on a pipeline deal. Why would he screw the deal up by supporting FARC?
4. Unemplotment has dropped, it is now 6% below the rate when he took office. His nations economy is growing now that the opposition is striking our supporting a coup.
5. I do agree that he is corrupt in some form, but so were the last presidents of Venezuela and the many dictators the U.S. supported.
6. Governments are oligiarchies, but his oligiarchy has been elected democratically.
7. Chavez has a 70% approval rating according to an opposition poll, twice that of Bush's. He has mass support in his country.
8. The opposition has been even more "undemocratic".
9. C.I.A.
10. Most of the media in Venezuela is run by the oppostion.
11. Chavez has good relations with the indigenous peoples.
12. I do think he moved to harshly on the PDVSA But the PDVSA is doing fine.
13. Hugo Chavez doesn't jail people just for opposing him like Castro does. Hugo and Fidel has some similiarities in ideology but in other aspects, they are radically different. The Bolivarian Revolution is different from Castro's government.
SecureROM is stupid....
Domesticus
This is funny. Find me proofs of terrorism by Castro. Not everyone who disagree with the USA are terrorists you know? Castro would act against his own benifit if he was to support terrorism.
Says the republican.7. Chavez is president of all the people of Venezuela. No, he does not govern to unify Venezuela but to divide it with class warfare. There are millions of people the president does not represent and who he wants to drive out of the country.
Proofs? Sources?11. Chavez is the victim of racism – a small group of rich white men want to cashier the dark-skinned president. This assertion is the height of cynicism. If only people of color were to vote in an election, Chavez would lose.
Yes, but they are using their power to benifit their people, as much as they can, at least. I couldn't say the same thing about some dictators that americans installed in many countries...13. Chavez is a leftist like Lula of Brazil or Gutierrez of Ecuador. No he is not. Like Castro, the president is obsessed with accumulating power, not using it for any purpose on the left, center or right.
Explain?It's no wonder those who admire Castro also admire this guy.
Civitate
Yes I have, I personally liked it and highly reccommend it to anyone wanting a simple introduction to the Argentinian movement. It was actually my first introduction to Naomi Klein, I went out and got "No Logo" a few months later.
My only real dislike of the movie was how they portrayed Peron as some sort of socialist hero.
1) The creation of the world is the most marvelous achievement imaginable.
2) The merit of an achievement is the product of (a) its intrinsic quality, and (b) the ability of its creator.
3) The greater the disability (or handicap) of the creator, the more impressive the achievement.
4) The most formidable handicap for a creator would be non-existence.
5) Therefore if we suppose that the universe is the product of an existent creator we can conceive a greater being — namely, one who created everything while not existing.
6) Therefore, God does not exist.
Garbarsardar's love child, and the only child he loves. ^-^
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