US-credibility

[balleny]

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...MPLATE=DEFAULT

"Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice gave the Bush administration's most comprehensive accounting yet of U.S. rules on treatment of prisoners in the war on terrorism Wednesday, but her assurances left loopholes for practices that could be akin to torture."

Did Dr Rice give a clear statement? In my opinion the secretary of state again produced a lot of wishi-washi but no answers. Doesn't she understand that she does a lot of harm to the credibility of the United States?

What scares me is that a lot of people approve of torture:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...MPLATE=DEFAULT

[Erik]

Did Dr Rice give a clear statement?

According to OUR forreign minister she didn't.
And judging by how increadible diplomatic he always is this means NOT AT ALL.

[danzig]

Did Dr Rice give a clear statement? In my opinion the secretary of state again produced a lot of wishi-washi but no answers. Doesn't she understand that she does a lot of harm to the credibility of the United States?

What scares me is that a lot of people approve of torture:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...MPLATE=DEFAULT

One problem is other then her standing there going yes we are guilty, we've done this...any answer she gave would be a no answer to some people.

[balleny]

One problem is other then her standing there going yes we are guilty, we've done this...any answer she gave would be a no answer to some people.

No the answer should be: "We are not going to use these practices and we don't want any of our employees or allies to use such practices. Organizations and individuals committing acts of torture have to face prosecution by the USA, states practicing torture are the natural enemies of a free country like the USA."
This s about the future. Concerning the past you are right. Nobody will believe anything else any more.

[danzig]

No the answer should be: "We are not going to use these practices and we don't want any of our employees or allies to use such practices. Organizations and individuals committing acts of torture have to face prosecution by the USA, states practicing torture are the natural enemies of a free country like the USA."

And some people including some of the people posting on this forum would have said it was simply bs. My point is *nothing* she said would phase some people, ie the most vocal critics on that side of the ocean. It simply doesnt matter what she says because the damage has already been done, even if the US hasnt done any of this it simply doesnt matter at this point. Right now you could probably accuse the US of helping Hitler's rise to power in the 30s and convince some people. Alot of it is our own fault obviously and wont be fixed until next presidental election but some of it isnt and it wont matter next election to those people.

[balleny]

Right now you could probably accuse the US of helping Hitler's rise to power in the 30s and convince some people. Alot of it is our own fault obviously and wont be fixed until next presidental election but some of it isnt and it wont matter next election to those people.

There are always "some people" you can't convince. And most people are convinced that politicians never will make a clear statement anyway (doesn't matter if it concerns torture or new taxes). But what about the rest. These guys are professionals. (At least Ms Rice is). So she should realize, that by now the only way to go ahead is to be straight. (Even The Economist - certainly not an anti-american paper - critisized the way the current administration is handling this issue.)

off topic: concerning your example: Fascist Italy got it's loans handled by the Morgan bank. The director, who mainly did this was father in law of Charles Lindbergh, who... :wink:

[MadKow]

Right now you could probably accuse the US of helping Hitler's rise to power in the 30s and convince some people.

Funny you mention it...
How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power

I couldnt help it, you can google anything, i admit i was a bit surprised to find a reference in a very mainstream newspaper...

[imb39]

The American position is undermined by the fact that they systematically refuse to take these prisoners onto their own soil and it is percieved, whether rightly or wrongly, that they are doing their dirty business on our (as in the rest of the world's) soil. This displays contempt for others. If they're not prepared to do it in America, they shouldn't be doing it elsewhere (whatever 'it' is).

The recent revelations (well maybe not recent) where a German journalist was held and allegedly tortured in Afghanistan has not helped the American cause. Also the ridiculous situation in Guantanomo Bay where even citizens of ALLIES were not sent to their home countries for 'debriefing' was scandalous and has been a key part in the deterioration of relations.

US credibility has, to be honest, gone through the gutter. As to whether the problem has been caused by the actions of organisations such as the CIA or the incompetence of the Bush administration (and it has been incompetent in this area), only time will tell.

[Farnan]

Its Secretary Rice or Dr. Rice, not Ms. Rice. Its like calling Queen Elizabeth, Ms. Windsor. No matter what anyone says America will be the great opponent to nearly everyone else. We get critisiced from every side, so we must be doing something right.

[balleny]

Its Secretary Rice or Dr. Rice, not Ms. Rice. Its like calling Queen Elizabeth, Ms. Windsor.

Since I have already used Dr. Rice in my very first post it should be fine. If you are interested in style:
http://www.economist.com/research/st...fm?page=805691

Concerning your other statement: Of course, some people will always critisize the United States, but what about the rest? By now, real friends abroad get annoyed by the way the US-administration is handling things.

[Erik]

Its Secretary Rice or Dr. Rice, not Ms. Rice. Its like calling Queen Elizabeth, Ms. Windsor.

Who cares?

No matter what anyone says America will be the great opponent to nearly everyone else. We get critisiced from every side, so we must be doing something right.

The world doesn't see America as it's opponent.
America just likes to put itself into a "us vs them" position.

[the_mango55]

The world doesn't see America as it's opponent.
America just likes to put itself into a "us vs them" position.

The American position is undermined by the fact that they systematically refuse to take these prisoners onto their own soil and it is percieved, whether rightly or wrongly, that they are doing their dirty business on our (as in the rest of the world's) soil.

This is the kind of statement that makes Americans think that the entire world is against us. When people from another country group "the rest of the world" as "us," and America as "they" it might give us that impression once in a while.

[imb39]

LOL, but Bush cannot be blamed for that, though Danzig did ask for it!!!

[danzig]

LOL, but Bush cannot be blamed for that, though Danzig did ask for it!!!

Hehe please Im no amateur I posted that knowing just knowing someone would bring up good ol Preston

[Farnan]

By opponent I don't mean enemy, I mean political target, opponent seeking influence in the rest of the world.
Davey Crocket, US Congressman and American Frontier Hero, once said that you can judge how influental someone was by how many enemies they have.

About the title, calling something by something besides their title is insulting.

[Kanaric]

No matter what anyone says America will be the great opponent to nearly everyone else. We get critisiced from every side, so we must be doing something right.

The world doesn't see America as it's opponent.
America just likes to put itself into a "us vs them" position.

heh, its funny because that guys statement preety much proved the 2nd one I quoted by itsself.
We do the US vs THEM thing because politicians have to have an enemy for us at all times so its easy for them to get elected. That way they can rip on opponeants in campaign ads and have excuses to do things the people would normally not agree with. I wonder if this goes on in Europeon countries....

Also some are jealous of the US power, like islamic fundamentalists, but i doubt most of the countries in Europe are included in that category. Its fearmongerors that want you to think that.

[Erik]

We do the US vs THEM thing because politicians have to have an enemy for us at all times so its easy for them to get elected. That way they can rip on opponeants in campaign ads and have excuses to do things the people would normally not agree with. I wonder if this goes on in Europeon countries....

Most European countries have a multi-party system and I think this makes a huge difference.
If two parties get into mud-sling mode they usually both loose the elections so they wil try to avoid this as much as possible.
Only populists can succesfully use this tactic because they claim that all politicians are evil/bad/corrupt and people should just vote for them because this is the last thing mainstream politicians want.

And our elections are far less driven by ads and much more focused on debates.
And politicians just don't look good when they sling mud in a debate.

[balleny]

We do the US vs THEM thing because politicians have to have an enemy for us at all times so its easy for them to get elected.

Sure there is always some scapegoating involved. A few years ago politicians (in ministries for domestic security) in several European countries wanted to create a database with everybody's fingerprints. After a public outcry they pulled back. Now the whole thing is created because the United States wants to have fingerprints,... in passports. EU- politicians get what they wanted but they still can blame the US.

Same with the current issues about torture. Now there are some hints that German authorities cooperated much more with interrogators in Guantanamo than they admitted (concerning a Turkish citizen who was a German resident).

back to topic:
another article.
I like that picture of the secretary of state, Dr Condoleezza Rice
(Her advicers and coaches might order Botox before the next press conference)
http://www.economist.com/agenda/disp...ory_id=5277867

[Erik]

I like that picture of the secretary of state, Dr Condoleezza Rice

I've seen this picture a before, couple of months ago.
That time her eyes where "accidentally" made much too white and she looked pure evil.
Then, a couple of hours later, her eyes were normal again and there was an appology on the website.

About that article you linked:

The Europeans’ moral fastidiousness not only reflects a lack of realism about the seriousness of the terrorist threat,

Well, it's my opinion that the US greatly "mis-over-estimates" the thread of terrorism.
But the next part is more interesting...

but is also often hypocritical, they say. Many of those protesting loudest about America’s anti-terrorist policies have secretly acquiesced to the CIA operations in their airspace and on their soil, they suggest.

For this you have to keep in mind that in Europe there is a difference between parliament and the government.
Parliament is elected, but the government isn't.
So parliament, and this includes the opposition, has the RIGHT to know exactly what their government does.
Our ministers have said that they don't know what/who the US transports in the CIA planes.
But if it turn out they do know this would mean they lied to parliament and this is a "sin" that can only lead to their resignation.
So wil we have election next months?

I think Americans underestimate how strongly the European parliaments oppose even the "lightest" forms or torture.
They don't (just) want to point fingers at the US, they want to be absolutely sure their country isn't cooperating in activities that go against international law.

[Rush Limbaugh]

For this you have to keep in mind that in Europe there is a difference between parliament and the government.
Parliament is elected, but the government isn't.
.

What in hell are you talking about? Parliment is the government.

I think Americans underestimate how strongly the European parliaments oppose even the "lightest" forms or torture.

I think you would be very surprised at how many still use them. Heck thats where we got most of our techniques.