Elite units and balance

[Ninefingers]

Howdy,

First of all, the mod is fantastic and a big thanks to DimeBagHo for making it. It really delivers what vanilla left me yearning for, which was more depth and variety without sacrificing gameplay. The provincial campaigns are also an absolutely fantastic addition and I love them to bits.

I have a few concerns though, any help would be appreciated. Here we go:

I like to play the Cyrene and Pergamum campaigns most, which means that I quickly see myself facing the TSE. The TSE have a very similar unit roster to the Greeks, but their vast territories give them a nearly limitless income which translates itself into absurdly powerful armies developed very early on.

This is particularly easy to see as Pergamum. Since the TSE provinces around Pergamum are quite undeveloped and low on population, the only real troop centers are the capital, Pergamum, and Halicarnassus should you conquer it. By the time I'm ready to pump out some phalangites (non-militia), the TSE has mastered the art of mass-producing stacks of Thorakitai which frankly seem a bit too strong for what (according to the description, I'm no Greek historian) seems to be support infantry. Since they don't cost much more than phalangites and the TSE is loaded, I end up facing multiple stacks of 90% thorakitai with the occasional Argyraspid thrown in to add insult to injury - stacks which are nearly invincible as they a) will not rout b) can kill infantry or cavalry c) are as capable as a field army, a siege army or a defensive army thanks to their javelins.

The Thorakitai just seem too strong compared to the level of barracks from which they can be recruited and their overall strength and versatility. Is there any attribute I should be looking at in particular to tone them down a bit, or to reduce the AI's propensity to spam them? I'd like the Hellenic AI factions to favor phalangites over other types of infantry, but at least the TSE doesn't seem to until...

...Argyraspids. I don't know what they're feeding them, but the Silver Shields are monsters on the field. I've watched in horror as a single unit of these Rambos destroyed three of my Armored Phalangites despite being completely surrounded. About five seconds after they made contact with my phalanxes I watched in horror as my mancount began diving like living was going out of style.

I can appreciate elite units being able to defeat any other single unit, but these were not super veteran Argyraspids taking on militias - it was a freshly produced unit (maybe one or two bronze chevrons) against three freshly produced (two bronze chevrons from Temples of Nike) Armored Phalangites, the best "standard" phalanx unit I could produce. The AP are even described as elite in their unit descriptions!

When playing as other factions, I face similar issues with the Greeks mass-producing Hypaspists until the cows come home. I feel about them as I do about the Thorakitai, only they seem a bit easier to kill for some reason - still, it's a bit odd seeing Greek armies fielding what looks like a Roman battle template.

I'm considering editing out the various Thorakitai and Hypaspist units to keep the AI factions on the straight and narrow (as far as phalanxes are concerned) but would hate to do so as I do think they serve a purpose and add some options. The Argyraspids I definitely want to keep, but would like to tone down a bit so they aren't so ridiculously strong.

I was thinking of reducing the Thorakitais morale a bit as well as their defensive skill (they shouldn't be able to outlast a phalanx!), same for Hypaspists and for the Argyraspids my main issue with them is the sheer rate at which they kill...everything...so their attack values will have to come down, I think. Any thoughts / comments?

PS: In case DBH is reading, there's a slight typo in the description for Rhodes Graduates - the effect description is "+1 Influence, +1 Influence" when the effect is +1 Influence, +1 Management.

Phew, that was long! I wouldn't write this much if I didn't love playing the mod, so I hope my issues are taken as a compliment.

[knguyen_93]

Man if you ur considering elite unit is a failure, why dont you play as TSE and stop boo-hooing about it, I love Greek units and moreover the silver phalanx just got 2 more attack than the greek amoured phalanx. The key point is conquering Antioch early in the game so that you wont counter their upgraded phalanx >,<

[scubatim84]

Does anyone else really have a problem with fighting TSE out of curiosity? I don't seem to recall them being particularly annoying when fighting them on my Macedonian campaign...they kept losing ground fairly easily in fact. I don't recall what the unit compositions in those armies were though so I'm not sure if they had upgraded units or were spamming thoratikai.

[Ninefingers]

Well, maybe it's just me! I looked at the stats and the Thorakitai only have a morale value of 10, so there's no reason why they should be too hard to break. The Argyraspids are considerably tougher, but again their stats don't show any particular strength - the Greek Sacred Band look much harder, with a morale value of 24 (!) I can't see them breaking unless they get gang-banged by elephants, scythed chariots and berserkers.

I think what I might have been seeing was a disparity between comparable human-controlled units vs. Hard AI controlled units - the difficulty level adds 4 attack and 4 morale I believe, which would explain why the Argyraspids are so homicidal and why their Thorakitai don't break (mine certainly do, though not easily).

I've since started a new Cyrenian campaign and have managed to fare better against them, though I maintain that Thorakitai seem a bit too tough for their supposed role, and the AI ends up spamming them too much - it'd be nice to see more phalanxes. That said, it looks like I'll just have to get better!

I guess I just suck.

[scubatim84]

Well, maybe it's just me! I looked at the stats and the Thorakitai only have a morale value of 10, so there's no reason why they should be too hard to break. The Argyraspids are considerably tougher, but again their stats don't show any particular strength - the Greek Sacred Band look much harder, with a morale value of 24 (!) I can't see them breaking unless they get gang-banged by elephants, scythed chariots and berserkers.

I think what I might have been seeing was a disparity between comparable human-controlled units vs. Hard AI controlled units - the difficulty level adds 4 attack and 4 morale I believe, which would explain why the Argyraspids are so homicidal and why their Thorakitai don't break (mine certainly do, though not easily).

I've since started a new Cyrenian campaign and have managed to fare better against them, though I maintain that Thorakitai seem a bit too tough for their supposed role, and the AI ends up spamming them too much - it'd be nice to see more phalanxes. That said, it looks like I'll just have to get better!

I guess I just suck.

Oh, well yeah that's why I don't play on hard or very hard mode. I tried it and was thoroughly dissapointed. If the computer employed more clever tactics in battle and campaign, that's great, that's what I want....but giving the computer a generous handicapp isn't hard mode to me, it's retarded mode. I didn't even notice any difference in campaign either, the settlements were just harder to keep happy.

[knguyen_93]

Oh, well yeah that's why I don't play on hard or very hard mode. I tried it and was thoroughly dissapointed. If the computer employed more clever tactics in battle and campaign, that's great, that's what I want....but giving the computer a generous handicapp isn't hard mode to me, it's retarded mode. I didn't even notice any difference in campaign either, the settlements were just harder to keep happy.

Man, there is no challenge in playing on M/M difficulty, its somewhat 2 easy and the AI is so crippled that its 2 boring to play anymore . Longlive VH/VH level

[DimeBagHo]

Thanks for the feedback Ninefingers (and for spotting the typo).

TSE is a difficult faction to balance well. Left to it's own devices the AI tends to depopulate all those small settlements spam numerous stacks of low quality troops (mostly Thureophoroi), and then get overrun by all the surrounding factions. To prevent that I've allowed the AI to recruit a special Thorakitai unit which is available in all settlements, regardless of barracks level, but which takes four turns to recruit. If you want to reduce the quanity of these Thorakitai around you could just increase the recruitment time for the unit. The internal name for the unit in export_descr_units is 'greek_heavy_infantry_sp'. The recruitment time is the first number on the stat_cost line.

In terms of base stats the Argyraspides are only a little better than Armoured phalangites, but upgrades and circumstances can make a huge difference. I've found that even a slight slope can make a huge difference to the outcome in a phalanx vs phalanx battle, and terrain modifiers can also make a big difference. I've also found that if you order your phalanx to attack, they tend to get chewed up faster. It's better to put them in guard mode.

[Ninefingers]

Thanks for the tip! I'll try adjusting that to five turns and see how the AI fares. Or perhaps change the unit to standard Phalangites, though I suppose they're rated poorly in auto-resolve - I can imagine trying to balance all the factions is a nightmare and I must say I'm very impressed with the over-all balance. In some campaigns the TSE has crumbled as it fights multiple wars with Baktria, the Ptolemies, Pontus and Armenia, but when left to fight a single war at a time it prospers and comes to dominate Asia (as it should).

I think you must be right about the Argyraspids - I must have missed a slope or my phalanx lost formation somehow. I don't normally use them to attack anything (if I have to, I'll use a standard move to walk them up to the enemy units) but stat-wise, I see now there's no reason for the outcome I experienced to be the norm. I'll have to try again.

Thanks again for a fantastic mod!

[DimeBagHo]

The recommended difficulty setting is H/H. That's the level I test on, and I think it provides a reasonable balance between compensating for weak AI and avoiding ridiculous combat and diplomatic outcomes. But, obviously the right difficulty level is the one you find most fun to play on.

I've always found the best way to improve the challenge of the game is to add house rules, especially to rule out the easiest exploits against the AI. Some typical rules I use are: (1) No using the red line to prevent flanking; (2) Limited missile and cavalry units in each stack; (3) Units that unload off ships have to wait a turn before moving.

[Hurlbut]

(3) Units that unload off ships have to wait a turn before moving.

That might work....if it were not for the fact that a turn represent a half year

[Durnaug]

No using the red line to prevent flanking

This is very reason why I decided to try out the XGM mod. Playing as the GCS in vanilla, I always ended up using this "exploit" by hiding in the corner of a map. I felt so crippled as this faction and pretty lame for using this tactic.

[Celestial Oblivion]

(1) No using the red line to prevent flanking;

Huh? When I read the description of that in the installer, I thought it just made the red line invisible. Does that mean if I enabled that I could go around the red line?

[DimeBagHo]

Celestial Oblivion: The "no red line" installer option will just make the line invisible. In the post above I was talking about a "house rule", which is a rule you add to the game yourself to make it more interesting. Using the red line or the edge of the map to secure your flanks makes battles too easy, so I think it adds to the fun of the game if you don't do that.

[Durnaug]

Huh? When I read the description of that in the installer, I thought it just made the red line invisible. Does that mean if I enabled that I could go around the red line?

Removing the red line just discourages me from using the corners of the battle map to secure my flanks. I did it all the time as the Greeks in vanilla RTW. Now it is a case of out of sight, out of mind!

[knguyen_93]

wew, every1 seems against me!!!! Thats not fair, any1 love VH/VH level?

[Sabazios]

nope

[nhinhonhinho]

I'm just use the red line when in the "impossible" battle. Beside that i'm the once who use the flanking move more often than AI

[albernmatt]

I think what I could see there were differences comparable human control unit vs Hard AI controlled units - add 4 difficulty levels and 4 attack moral faith, which explains why Argyraspids are so deadly and why Thorakitai do not break (the I for sure but not easily).