Take that cross away!

[Ummon]

Sooner or later, people will realize.

http://mosnews.com/news/2005/12/06/muslimsigns.shtml

Russia’s Muslims Want Christian Symbols Removed From Coat of Arms
Created: 06.12.2005 16:34 MSK (GMT +3), Updated: 16:34 MSK

A group of top Muslim clerics have demanded that Orthodox Christian symbols be removed from the Russian coat of arms and have complained about the Russian authorities and power-wielding structures allegedly refusing to abide by the principle of secularity, the Interfax news agency reported.

“This is not only a question of the Russian coat of arms. We can say that icons are all but put up on the walls of state offices,” Nafigulla Ashirov, chairman of the Spiritual Board of Muslims of Asian Russia, told journalists.

He accused units of the Defense and Interior Ministries and the Federal Security Service of appropriating various saints “who are allegedly the patrons of warriors”. “The power-wielding structures, the authorities and the Russian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchy are erecting large crosses at border posts and the approaches to towns. Orthodox chapels are being built in the command bodies of the armed forces,” he lamented.

In his turn, Damir Mukhetdinov, deputy head of the Spiritual Board of the Nizhny Novgorod region’s Muslims, shared the Muslims’ concerns. Their feelings are insulted by the Orthodox presence in the Russian coat of arms.

“We, the Muslims of Nizhny Novgorod region, were wholeheartedly in favour of introducing the unity of the peoples holiday. We could not have imagined, however, that the sound of Orthodox bells and the icon of the Virgin of Kazan would become the symbols of this holiday in Russia,” he said about the day of people’s unity. The mufti is convinced that “all this violates the secular nature of the state and doesn’t contribute to the unity of Russia’s peoples”.

Ali Visam Bardvil, head of the Spiritual Board of Karelia’s Muslims, too, believes that the presence of Christian symbols in the coat of arms is impermissible. He said that Russia “is neither a Muslim nor a Christian country”.

“The cross is not a Muslim symbol. We respect the religious feeling of Christians but do not recognize the crucifixion of Christ,” the Muslim figure clarified. “Therefore,” he went on, “in my opinion Orthodox symbols should be removed from the coat of arms to make it acceptable to all religions.” Bardvil emphasized that Muslims would support all politicians calling for a change to the current symbols in the Russian coat of arms.

[Machiavelli's Apprentice]

Maybe they should forbid Russian government employees from going to church, too.

[Justinian]

But if it was a crescent on Russia's coat of arms, it would all be fine and dandy.

[MoROmeTe]

It will necer happen... And I think there are a few Christians that would like that too...

[Ummon]

It will necer happen... And I think there are a few Christians that would like that too...

I hear that Russians are going back to full Orthodoxy though.

And also, muslims are asking this essentially everywhere, for some reason.

[Kanaric]

Eh, does Russia have a separation of Church and State? If so then this is a nobrainer, remove it.

And also, muslims are asking this essentially everywhere, for some reason.

Of course, they dont want to feel that the government only represents the Christian populace.


I'd bet if the country had an islamic symbol on their the christians would be whining like babies as well.

[Ummon]

Eh, does Russia have a separation of Church and State? If so then this is a nobrainer, remove it.

For some reason the Russian news site didn't think so.

Of course, they dont want to feel that the government only represents the Christian populace.

Perhaps. The Christian "populace" is the majority, though. Should they hide their religious symbols and change their history?

I'd bet if the country had an islamic symbol on their the christians would be whining like babies as well.

In muslim countries, actually, christians tend to whine when their churches are burned and their co-religionaries killed, as far as I can tell. But this lasts little, because it only makes things worse.

[RZZZA]

I think all muslims need to shut the hell up right now. Its not a good time to be doing this stuff, just stfu, lay low for a bit like they have been in America. Although the Russian government was never as accepting of muslims as the American government is. The trouble in the Balkans...all those heavily muslim influenced countries right on Russias borders...theyre in a powder keg of a situation. The weird thing is, the Turks dont seem to bother Russians as much. Very rarely is it a turkish muslim that does something to harm Russia, I guess those Turks learned their lesson over the centuries....don't mess with Russia. Now parts of Turkey, including Istanbul and Ankara the Turkish capital have lots of Russians living and vacationing there. Turkey is quite a popular vacation spot for Russki's and the Turks generally tend to leave them alone.


Of course if it was up to me...all organized religion would STFU, not just the muslims.

[Odovacar]

Some originally religous icon belongs to one nation's history and these are symbols of the commonwealth. For example, in the hungarian coat of arms there is a doubled cross (which originally cames from Byzant) and this is our oldest symbol. A few muslims live here, but if they not like our historical coat of arms they should leave and live in another country. The same goes for the Russians. They were a christian people, (at least when they created their state) and if one would like to live there, he must respect their traditions. If the muslims are offended by russian symbols they should not entlist to the army. The majority cannot be ruled by a minority. Sometimes minorities demand things just for fun, just for make the majority annoyed.
Do you remember that Souths Park episode, in which, the Jews demand that the Cross should be removed from the christmass fest? Then other minority demans something else, and so on. At the end, they find only one common symbol, in which they all can agree, and that is....

[Kanaric]

In muslim countries, actually, christians tend to whine when their churches are burned and their co-religionaries killed, as far as I can tell. But this lasts little, because it only makes things worse.

I dont see the majority of muslims their burning churching and killing people, only some minority of sepratists and extremists.

Seriously, do you honestly think all muslims are evil? Just say it and this discussion will be over.

I'd guarntee if this were a muslim country that you would probably be just as annoyed as they are about the crescent being on the US coat of arms.

[Ummon]

I dont see the majority of muslims their burning churching and killing people, only some minority of sepratists and extremists.

I don't see the minority of christians burning mosques though.

Seriously, do you honestly think all muslims are evil? Just say it and this discussion will be over.

I never said it, though the idea that discussion would be over was tempting.

I'd guarntee if this were a muslim country that you would probably be just as annoyed as they are about the crescent being on the US coat of arms.

I am not a Christian, at least not in any formal way, though I believe Christ was an enlightened man and perhaps more, and I do not believe in changing the culture of others to suit my goals and desires.

[bigfootedfred]

I don't see the minority of christians burning mosques though.

however according to your own source at top of page.
christans do things like

About 200 people with icons and slogans have attacked the opening of Vedic culture festival in the South Russian resort of Anapa.

The festival, organized by Russian Krishnaites — a Hindu sect wide spread outside India — took place in a health center. Cossacks in camouflage and elderly women burst into the center territory demanding that Krishnaites leave their town, Russian website Religio.Ru reported. The site also said that representatives of Russian Orthodox clergy headed the protest.
The attackers carried slogans saying “Vedic Culture Is Hitler’s Culture” and “We Will Clean Anapa of Devil Kin.” Some of them turned over a book stall, trampled down a portrait of a Krishnaite saint, tore down festival posters.
Organizers of the festival supported by local authorities held negotiations with the attackers who agreed to leave the scene so that the Krishnaites could continue their festival. However, the Hindus were forbidden to wear traditional Indian costumes when visiting Anapa.
The festival included seminars, songs and dances, other actions.

source


and you dont speak about relgoius intolerance in russia, which even the US is concerned about.

Russia is cited as a country in which conditions for some minority faiths are deteriorating despite the fact that “government policy continued to contribute to the generally free practice of religion for most of the population,” according to a new State Department International Religious Freedom Report that looks at conditions in 197 countries, issued by U.S. Congress Tuesday.

The report cited in particular societal discrimination and antagonism against Muslims in Russia, legal obstacles that work to the disadvantage of such nontraditional groups as Jehovah’s Witnesses, and an increase in both anti-Semitic incidents and the harassment of evangelical and Pentecostal Christians.

...also, from your own source
source

sounds to me like theres alot of people, who want alot of things in russia, and some of thosse include muslims.
you, just chosse to show only the muslims, and you do that every time you make one of these threads, you try your best to potray muslims as evil.

[Machiavelli's Apprentice]

Even the Nazis respected Germany's historic symbols, like the Teutonberg cross.

[Ummon]

Not in disagreement at all, these are very good contributions, you should open a thread about it.

And I merely relate reality, about Islam, and not muslims.

[Machiavelli's Apprentice]

That's hardly on the same level as killing people and burning religious buildings.

According to your reasoning, the American Democrats who attend protests are "intolerant"

[Bonheddwr]

I don't think you guys are really looking at the context of this issue. Most of Russia's Muslims are concentrated in the steppes area, where they were conquered by the Christian Russians, many of these areas are much poorer than the rest of Russia and are more or less ignored by the state. It's more an issue of the Cross being a symbol of imperialist Russian oppression than some Muslims being contrary. While the cross may be a part of Russian history, it certainly does not have the same part in say Chechen history.

[Machiavelli's Apprentice]

I don't think you guys are really looking at the context of this issue. Most of Russia's Muslims are concentrated in the steppes area, where they were conquered by the Christian Russians, many of these areas are much poorer than the rest of Russia and are more or less ignored by the state. It's more an issue of the Cross being a symbol of imperialist Russian oppression than some Muslims being contrary. While the cross may be a part of Russian history, it certainly does not have the same part in say Chechen history.

I have hispanic blood in my veins, and feel the hispanic anger rising.


I DEMAND THAT THE AMERICANS REPLACE THEIR FLAG, AS IT IS A SIGN OF AMERICAN IMPERIALISM AGAINST SPANISH FLORIDA!

Perhaps the Russians should also censor their history books of all historical events that Muslims also find offensive.

[Ummon]

I don't think you guys are really looking at the context of this issue. Most of Russia's Muslims are concentrated in the steppes area, where they were conquered by the Christian Russians, many of these areas are much poorer than the rest of Russia and are more or less ignored by the state. It's more an issue of the Cross being a symbol of imperialist Russian oppression than some Muslims being contrary. While the cross may be a part of Russian history, it certainly does not have the same part in say Chechen history.

This is an intelligent contribution, I know they required autonomy but were refused it by the Moscow governement. Looks like a thorny issue for Putin is coming up.

Though allow me to say, they are asking to take away the cross from public places in Italy too, and we haven't invaded them, the contrary, perhaps.

[Kanaric]

Even the Nazis respected Germany's historic symbols, like the Teutonberg cross.

Thats because they were decended from Christians....

Anyways if the muslims start bombing or whatever over Russia should have no problem with how the US took care of it in the Philipines. Take some extremists/terrorists or whatever you call them, hang them, cover them in pigs blood and guts, and leave their bodies to rot on the ground. The US did this with terrorists back before WW2 and it worked! Now people are so politically correct though so you can't do this.

However them just complaining about a cross on a state picture isn't anything to worry about. They just want to be equal, thats it! If this were the US it would of been removed.

sounds to me like theres alot of people, who want alot of things in russia, and some of thosse include muslims.
you, just chosse to show only the muslims, and you do that every time you make one of these threads, you try your best to potray muslims as evil.

Exactly, that is what i am talking about. People on this board are crazy in that aspect and they always target every little thing that muslims (or liberals, or conservatives, or whatever) do just to do that. What is the other explantion!? Their is none so this must be factual. Otherwise they would be showing other things about other religions as well, not just atheists doing that.

Every topic on this board is about biased politiking, only showing half-thuths just to make people look bad and its disgusting.

[RZZZA]

Well in my crazy opinion, Moscow can or could have been at one point called the second Rome and was the shining beacon of Orthodoxy after Constantinople fell. The region has historically been rife with religious controversy thanks to Russia being so damn big and thanks to Muslims being such a short distance away, South across the black sea. Then of course you have asian influences coming in from the East and now western culture has permeated Russia as well. I guess those damn Cossacks are still as barbarian and headstrong as they ever were...jeez, damn Cossacks. Imo, Russia should conquer any percieved threat...and that goes for chechnya and for the muslims in the steppes. Sorry muslims...Russia is a christian land and historically has seen many unforgiving regimes...so if youre muslim, get the hell ouit of Russia. Just like I wouldnt expect for Christians to be living in Pakistan. If youre Christian, get the hell out of Pakistan. Or stay, if you wanna be a dumbass, but I won't pity you. I have more loyalty to my Russian ancestry than I do to muslims, so I'm tempted to say "Kill em all and let God sort em out" because I'm just that type of person. An ******* is what I think people call me.

But seriously, why do muslims think they can just live anywhere nowadays? Last I checked, only america gaurunteed you freedom from persecution. That doesnt mean ALL christian nations are gonna open their arms to muslims...France, Britian, Russia...? why are muslims emigrating to these lands, when theyre clearly ignored at best and persecuted at worst?