Problems i faced as Byzantines

[jo the greek]

Hi

some months before i replayed Bc as Byzantine and i had the followings problem

i had almost half Asia minor and had corndered Turkish Sultanate in 3 Regions .

Now the problem was my armies and their composition .

While i was based more in spearmen and Light cavalry and having access to few elites

The Turks trapped could make the same stacks of armies like me but also have access to good quality troops like Janissairies archers and etc . Not even adding the scripted armies.


Is this logic ?

[karaislam]

so try to play as turks.in first turn u ll see pelekyproi axeman and emperor guard against you.

[jo the greek]

so try to play as turks.in first turn u ll see pelekyproi axeman and emperor guard against you.

If you see the Turkish roster

they can get pretty good units from the start while Byzantines in order to survive you have to get rid of them cause of cost

And a Byzantine roster you get good units later while turks can get them earlier

Do not forget that Turks are superior in bows which really wins the battles.

[karaislam]

dear greek bro.

byzantines superior unit emperor guard as soon as game begin u can recruit it from istanbul with 1 upgrade.roman campaign is much easier than turks.turks fighting with greeks,georgians,armenians plus sometimes koj and yet even eyyubids.at least u ve 1 enemy.up to now 2 times i finished my byzantine campaign.i didnt live that problem.only problem is someturkish horse archers so with ur javelin cavalary and heavy cavalry u must break them.also dont make field battle try to siege their cities.in city battle they cant use horse archers effectively u know.as soon as game begin u ll have 2 best heavy axe.use these to take konya or ankara.

[Pambas]

There are two different rosters one for the players and another for the AI. The reason is that the AI is most of the time moronic so better to have him access to better troops right at the beginning.

The Roman campaign isn't that difficult, the turks are hard, but one single Roman army with enough toxotai and spear man to hold the line and those dreaded Axemen and the Kataphractoi can destroy any turkish army, but it won't be easy.

The difficulty you face are just part of the gameplay, remenber that at the time the Real ERE was in even more desesperate shape. In fact if you play Stainless Steel with the BGR-E option you will be even more desespaired, since most of the time you can only recruit militia unit and rarely elite or only mercenary units. .... it is hard but extremely FUN

[nurhak]

karaislam is right , if you play with the Turks, in the beginning the romans also have elite units

[jo the greek]

Ι believe you havent play the Byzantines ever

When you play with Byzantines in order to build economy you have to eliminate all the elite units the Best units you get is Mercenaries

Play as Byzantine you clearly see that Turkish Sultanate get Biggers armies with good units and economic boost and not forget the Crusaders that attack Constantinople


I am afraid you Judge Byzantine campaign as playing as A Turkish Sultanate meaning with AI holding Byzs

I guess you never playeds a Byzs


And if you look at The Recruitment Buildings you will notice that Turkish Sultanates get good units pretty units earlier than Byzantines .


I told you that i had half Asia minor with Turkish Sultanate holding 3 regions and stacks of armies were pretty the same . And as referred before that the Bow rules the game a thing that turks get from the start while as Byzantine you trie to recruit some cheap militia with some bad archers and some light infantry

[Pambas]

Ι believe you havent play the Byzantines ever

When you play with Byzantines in order to build economy you have to eliminate all the elite units the Best units you get is Mercenaries

Play as Byzantine you clearly see that Turkish Sultanate get Biggers armies with good units and economic boost and not forget the Crusaders that attack Constantinople


I am afraid you Judge Byzantine campaign as playing as A Turkish Sultanate meaning with AI holding Byzs

I guess you never playeds a Byzs


And if you look at The Recruitment Buildings you will notice that Turkish Sultanates get good units pretty units earlier than Byzantines .


I told you that i had half Asia minor with Turkish Sultanate holding 3 regions and stacks of armies were pretty the same . And as referred before that the Bow rules the game a thing that turks get from the start while as Byzantine you trie to recruit some cheap militia with some bad archers and some light infantry

Byzantine are my prefered faction, in fact I only played BC so far with Byzantine, KOJ, Armenia, and Makuria ... and I only play VH/VH

So I know what is about to play Byzantine

You are go the way of disbanding all your elite, but another way :

- Since you start the campaign at peace with the Turks (historically inacurate at best) you have at least 10 turns to gather all your Elite in one single army and recruit some militia.
- Once the Army is set go for the biggest Turkic stack in the block, generally there is one trying to conquer Doryleum castel.
- The key to win this battle is to hold the line, not charging.
- Toxotai are crappy, but if you wait for the enemy to get close, you can shower enough arrow to slow down HA.
-Second fase of the battle consist of making contact with the enemy infantry and HA (if possible)
- You militia wont hold so long, but thanks to the Kantarion spear man, Peleknio axeman ... those crappy levy can hold the damn line.
- Last fase of the battle is to have all your cavalry making an encirclement movement and charging the enemy from behind. From here the Roman superior armour is sure to win the day.
- Last fase is to run for Konya ... once you take the city the Turks are emasculated ... maybe Ankara and those basterd will be low.
- At this point you probably lost more than half your elites ... so your financial problems would be solved.
- With key cities at hand, militias can hold Turkic siege long enough for you to develop eco

GOLDEN RULE : NEVER ENGAGE THE TURKS IN THE OPEN, unless there is a brigde, mountain hill or any feature that might give an advantage and avoid getting showered in arrows.

Byzantine campaign is not that hard, since even if you go about pissing of the Kipchak they rarely go for a siege of Constantinople

[jo the greek]

Byzantine are my prefered faction, in fact I only played BC so far with Byzantine, KOJ, Armenia, and Makuria ... and I only play VH/VH

So I know what is about to play Byzantine

You are go the way of disbanding all your elite, but another way :

- Since you start the campaign at peace with the Turks (historically inacurate at best) you have at least 10 turns to gather all your Elite in one single army and recruit some militia.
- Once the Army is set go for the biggest Turkic stack in the block, generally there is one trying to conquer Doryleum castel.
- The key to win this battle is to hold the line, not charging.
- Toxotai are crappy, but if you wait for the enemy to get close, you can shower enough arrow to slow down HA.
-Second fase of the battle consist of making contact with the enemy infantry and HA (if possible)
- You militia wont hold so long, but thanks to the Kantarion spear man, Peleknio axeman ... those crappy levy can hold the damn line.
- Last fase of the battle is to have all your cavalry making an encirclement movement and charging the enemy from behind. From here the Roman superior armour is sure to win the day.
- Last fase is to run for Konya ... once you take the city the Turks are emasculated ... maybe Ankara and those basterd will be low.
- At this point you probably lost more than half your elites ... so your financial problems would be solved.
- With key cities at hand, militias can hold Turkic siege long enough for you to develop eco

GOLDEN RULE : NEVER ENGAGE THE TURKS IN THE OPEN, unless there is a brigde, mountain hill or any feature that might give an advantage and avoid getting showered in arrows.

Byzantine campaign is not that hard, since even if you go about pissing of the Kipchak they rarely go for a siege of Constantinople

I see

your strategy is to hit fast before the Amazing and unnatural Turkish Logistic before it hits you

[Pambas]

I see

your strategy is to hit fast before the Amazing and unnatural Turkish Logistic before it hits you

Yes

Hit fast, Hard and deep ... they won't even now from were you came from

[onlygokhan]

GOLDEN RULE : NEVER ENGAGE THE TURKS IN THE OPEN, unless there is a brigde, mountain hill or any feature that might give an advantage and avoid getting showered in arrows.

Byzantine campaign is not that hard, since even if you go about pissing of the Kipchak they rarely go for a siege of Constantinople

IT's funny think to say "NEVER ENGAGE THE TURKS IN THE OPEN" and it's funny approach.. Don't forget this most of Turk sultanate/empire conquerded and defended most of settlement and castle.. How can they do this with just bows or cavalries? It's funny opinion and it's impossible becouse you can't do these with just them.. Just focus bow and cavalaries is not right approach but BC did this. I wonder they'll change this situation and do more balanced army for BC 3.. Turks success reason is not Bows and Cavalary, Turks owe success to their good millitary and government system and good strategies..

[karaislam]

well said turco.turks must be at its best.

[Tintin2]

GOLDEN RULE : NEVER ENGAGE THE TURKS IN THE OPEN, unless there is a brigde, mountain hill or any feature that might give an advantage and avoid getting showered in arrows.

Why only the Turks, if you take a look at all the factions roster you will see that almost all of them have atleast 2 horse archers.
Which is indeed why playing siege battles as KoJ or the Roman Empire is recommended.
Especially in the early stages of the campaign.
Cheers

[jo the greek]

But still your strategy yells that Byzantines are weak in Campaign cause of their set in the Game they lack good units in the start and you have small recruitment pool

While Turks can in early stages recruit Janissaries and Ghulams it was very frustrating to see me Having the half Asia Minor and the Turks with 3 regions to be able to maintain the same stack as i did

This is unbalanced.

I tried to recruit mercenaries it works but in longterm this doesnt help a lot

[Pambas]

But still your strategy yells that Byzantines are weak in Campaign cause of their set in the Game they lack good units in the start and you have small recruitment pool

While Turks can in early stages recruit Janissaries and Ghulams it was very frustrating to see me Having the half Asia Minor and the Turks with 3 regions to be able to maintain the same stack as i did

This is unbalanced.

I tried to recruit mercenaries it works but in longterm this doesnt help a lot

Yes Byzantine are weak in campaign .... and playing weak factions is great because you must try hard ... try to play makuria who have NO whorty armour

The game is in the contrary generous with the Byzantine:


At the game timeframe the empire was indeed weak, but you can still work out your way with some Kipchak horse archer and some great roman Infantry and Kataphraktos , provided you survive the first year.

However we can't go about an ideological need to ''fairly balance'' all factions, the true of the matter is that the Turk always overpowered the Byzantines, being those last needed a lot of intelligence and witt to not get Mantzikerted

[wudang_clown]

But still your strategy yells that Byzantines are weak in Campaign cause of their set in the Game they lack good units in the start and you have small recruitment pool

While Turks can in early stages recruit Janissaries and Ghulams it was very frustrating to see me Having the half Asia Minor and the Turks with 3 regions to be able to maintain the same stack as i did

This is unbalanced.

I tried to recruit mercenaries it works but in longterm this doesnt help a lot

It's not only the Byzantine campaign feature. Each faction lead by the player, including Anatolian Turks, has no initial access to its best troops. AI, on the contrary, has it from the beginning. I wouldn't say its unbalanced; AI doesn't have brain, after all.

[jo the greek]

well if Byzantines had a stronger archers in the start or a heavier cavalry more earlier it would be such trouble.

Or Spearmen and kontaratoi had biger number in the unit or able to recruit more .

I was constantly in try to find mercenairies in orders to close my armies gaps.


I wanted to ask did you changed the number of kontaratoi from 2 to 2.2

[Caelifer_1991]

Just started an ERE campaign (VH/ VH), having not played BC for... I can't even remember how long, and had little difficulty with it, I am only 7 years into the campaign, but on the other hand I've reduced the Turkish Sultunate down to 5 regions, and increased mine to 15. Just spam whatever units are available to you, ignore economic development until your main enemy is largely defeated and heavily on the defensive, and blitz through their territories with a stack comprised of all your best units backed up by whatever else you have spammed. I only made any effort to improve my economy aside from a warehouse in Constantinople at about 1780, and even then it was limited, focusing mainly on ports around the aegean and at cyprus whereby the military objective was also served, all remaining money went to the military and military structures, though such structures still remain second to maintaining the momentum against the enemy through troop numbers.

Those military structures are best built at Konya and Ankara so as to reduce travel time, with perhaps more at Trebizond, which should be actively engaged in pushing the second front with the Turks from the moment you wage war on them (about 3 turns in, once your neighbouring rebel factions in Asia Minor are captured). Cyprus is also useful as it can supply additional troops when required (so long as you have built the aforementioned port and a dromon or 2), and is worth investing in if you have the funds, if not the basic units there will still serve their purpose in regards to sustaining your advance.

Needless to say, given that the military objective is the priority, looting all captured settlements and leaving economic growth 'till later is the logical decision. Making full use of the elite troops you start with is also paramount, as they cost a large amount of upkeep and are best disposed of in combat with your enemies. The infantry (Pelekyphoroi) is however best used in seiges and is worth preserving for such, as starting basic infantry is not really cut out for it, by the time the 4 or so elite units you start with are dead, you should be able to proceed with the rest of the war through sheer numbers. At 1181 in my campaign, one of the elite infantry remains at 16 men and two of the elite cavalry (Kataphractoi) at 1 man and 9 men respectively, to give an idea of the longevity even despite being on the front line in every seige thus far.

Altogether I have 43 units on the front line (from Konya to Trebizond), comprised equally between the basic archers (toxotai), the basic spearmen (not the levies as they appear less cost effective, but akolouthoi instead) and skirmisher cavelry (trapezitae and hippotoxotai), with sadly only a couple of units of Skutatoi and Stratatoi remaining at low numbers due to lack of recruitment opportunity and a number of other random units including 3 units of mercenaries and several peltasoi for lack of anything else to recruit.

My intention is to ease up on the advancement slightly so as to build up my military infrastructure for any wars that follow after the Turks are fully defeated, keeping them as a sort of buffer state (that is albeit at war with me) until I can recruit atleast standard level units such as Stratatoi and Skutatoi at notable numbers, along with perhaps some superior roads so as to allow suitable reinforcement to my future front lines.

[jo the greek]

Just started an ERE campaign (VH/ VH), having not played BC for... I can't even remember how long, and had little difficulty with it, I am only 7 years into the campaign, but on the other hand I've reduced the Turkish Sultunate down to 5 regions, and increased mine to 15. Just spam whatever units are available to you, ignore economic development until your main enemy is largely defeated and heavily on the defensive, and blitz through their territories with a stack comprised of all your best units backed up by whatever else you have spammed. I only made any effort to improve my economy aside from a warehouse in Constantinople at about 1780, and even then it was limited, focusing mainly on ports around the aegean and at cyprus whereby the military objective was also served, all remaining money went to the military and military structures, though such structures still remain second to maintaining the momentum against the enemy through troop numbers.

Those military structures are best built at Konya and Ankara so as to reduce travel time, with perhaps more at Trebizond, which should be actively engaged in pushing the second front with the Turks from the moment you wage war on them (about 3 turns in, once your neighbouring rebel factions in Asia Minor are captured). Cyprus is also useful as it can supply additional troops when required (so long as you have built the aforementioned port and a dromon or 2), and is worth investing in if you have the funds, if not the basic units there will still serve their purpose in regards to sustaining your advance.

Needless to say, given that the military objective is the priority, looting all captured settlements and leaving economic growth 'till later is the logical decision. Making full use of the elite troops you start with is also paramount, as they cost a large amount of upkeep and are best disposed of in combat with your enemies. The infantry (Pelekyphoroi) is however best used in seiges and is worth preserving for such, as starting basic infantry is not really cut out for it, by the time the 4 or so elite units you start with are dead, you should be able to proceed with the rest of the war through sheer numbers. At 1181 in my campaign, one of the elite infantry remains at 16 men and two of the elite cavalry (Kataphractoi) at 1 man and 9 men respectively, to give an idea of the longevity even despite being on the front line in every seige thus far.

Altogether I have 43 units on the front line (from Konya to Trebizond), comprised equally between the basic archers (toxotai), the basic spearmen (not the levies as they appear less cost effective, but akolouthoi instead) and skirmisher cavelry (trapezitae and hippotoxotai), with sadly only a couple of units of Skutatoi and Stratatoi remaining at low numbers due to lack of recruitment opportunity and a number of other random units including 3 units of mercenaries and several peltasoi for lack of anything else to recruit.

My intention is to ease up on the advancement slightly so as to build up my military infrastructure for any wars that follow after the Turks are fully defeated, keeping them as a sort of buffer state (that is albeit at war with me) until I can recruit atleast standard level units such as Stratatoi and Skutatoi at notable numbers, along with perhaps some superior roads so as to allow suitable reinforcement to my future front lines.

interesting

[Humakty]

I wonder why people complain about ERE or KoJ. Those two factions do have good quality elites, and indeed have a speciality area in which they do shine. It's not the case of every faction, from the top of my head, Malikate of Sindh is much worse (apart from mercenary elephants, you've got absolutely nothing worth their gold cost). There are surely other factions that have worse rosters, I just don't have the taste to skim through rosters right now. (oh yeah Makuria ! A tribal army as regulars, and Oh my god ! guess who's your closest neighbour ?)

So, balance wise, I don't think ERE or KoJ should get the most Tender Care. Maybe increase AI KoJ starting army size, so that they last a little longer. (as in : they're supposed to get beaten sooner or later if you don't play them/help them)