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Thread: New Study: The Great Leap Forward killed 45 million Chinese in 4 years

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  1. #1
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    Default New Study: The Great Leap Forward killed 45 million Chinese in 4 years

    Just a reminder that Communism was awesome everybody.

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    Mao's Great Leap Forward 'killed 45 million in four years'

    By Arifa Akbar, Arts Correspondent

    Friday, 17 September 2010

    Mao Zedong, founder of the People's Republic of China, qualifies as the greatest mass murderer in world history, an expert who had unprecedented access to official Communist Party archives said yesterday.

    Speaking at The Independent Woodstock Literary Festival, Frank Dikötter, a Hong Kong-based historian, said he found that during the time that Mao was enforcing the Great Leap Forward in 1958, in an effort to catch up with the economy of the Western world, he was responsible for overseeing "one of the worst catastrophes the world has ever known".

    Mr Dikötter, who has been studying Chinese rural history from 1958 to 1962, when the nation was facing a famine, compared the systematic torture, brutality, starvation and killing of Chinese peasants to the Second World War in its magnitude. At least 45 million people were worked, starved or beaten to death in China over these four years; the worldwide death toll of the Second World War was 55 million.

    Mr Dikötter is the only author to have delved into the Chinese archives since they were reopened four years ago. He argued that this devastating period of history – which has until now remained hidden – has international resonance. "It ranks alongside the gulags and the Holocaust as one of the three greatest events of the 20th century.... It was like [the Cambodian communist dictator] Pol Pot's genocide multiplied 20 times over," he said.

    Between 1958 and 1962, a war raged between the peasants and the state; it was a period when a third of all homes in China were destroyed to produce fertiliser and when the nation descended into famine and starvation, Mr Dikötter said.

    His book, Mao's Great Famine; The Story of China's Most Devastating Catastrophe, reveals that while this is a part of history that has been "quite forgotten" in the official memory of the People's Republic of China, there was a "staggering degree of violence" that was, remarkably, carefully catalogued in Public Security Bureau reports, which featured among the provincial archives he studied. In them, he found that the members of the rural farming communities were seen by the Party merely as "digits", or a faceless workforce. For those who committed any acts of disobedience, however minor, the punishments were huge.

    State retribution for tiny thefts, such as stealing a potato, even by a child, would include being tied up and thrown into a pond; parents were forced to bury their children alive or were doused in excrement and urine, others were set alight, or had a nose or ear cut off. One record shows how a man was branded with hot metal. People were forced to work naked in the middle of winter; 80 per cent of all the villagers in one region of a quarter of a million Chinese were banned from the official canteen because they were too old or ill to be effective workers, so were deliberately starved to death.

    Mr Dikötter said that he was once again examining the Party's archives for his next book, The Tragedy of Liberation, which will deal with the bloody advent of Communism in China from 1944 to 1957.

    He said the archives were already illuminating the extent of the atrocities of the period; one piece of evidence revealed that 13,000 opponents of the new regime were killed in one region alone, in just three weeks. "We know the outline of what went on but I will be looking into precisely what happened in this period, how it happened, and the human experiences behind the history," he said.

    Mr Dikötter, who teaches at the University of Hong Kong, said while it was difficult for any historian in China to write books that are critical of Mao, he felt he could not collude with the "conspiracy of silence" in what the Chinese rural community had suffered in recent history.

  2. #2
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: New Study: The Great Leap Forward killed 45 million Chinese in 4 years

    Communism is awesome for long term world peace, or today we would already start WWIII for the remaining resource.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

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    Jingles's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: New Study: The Great Leap Forward killed 45 million Chinese in 4 years

    VV material, mayhaps?

  4. #4

    Default Re: New Study: The Great Leap Forward killed 45 million Chinese in 4 years

    Why must Mao have completely misinterpreted Marx and then given Socialism such a bad name...imagine how much better the world would be is people didn't use The Great Leap Forward as an example of Socialism, as they always do...

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    Default Re: New Study: The Great Leap Forward killed 45 million Chinese in 4 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Marechal Ney View Post
    Why must Mao have completely misinterpreted Marx and then given Socialism such a bad name
    Because he was an idiot. /thread

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    Default Re: New Study: The Great Leap Forward killed 45 million Chinese in 4 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Jingle_Bombs View Post
    Because he was an idiot. /thread
    NOOOOZ IT WUZ TEH EV1L SOCIALISM!
    ☻ This is a random collection of symbols. He's tired of you abusing him.
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    Default Re: New Study: The Great Leap Forward killed 45 million Chinese in 4 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Marechal Ney View Post
    Why must Mao have completely misinterpreted Marx and then given Socialism such a bad name...imagine how much better the world would be is people didn't use The Great Leap Forward as an example of Socialism, as they always do...
    Even Mao did not do that we can still pull out Stalin as a "good" example.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

  8. #8

    Default Re: New Study: The Great Leap Forward killed 45 million Chinese in 4 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Marechal Ney View Post
    Why must Mao have completely misinterpreted Marx and then given Socialism such a bad name...imagine how much better the world would be is people didn't use The Great Leap Forward as an example of Socialism, as they always do...
    If marx is such a genious, and communism the savior of mankind than why have so many died becuase of it? why have so many lives have to be lived in poverty? why do so many freedoms have to be taken away? Karl Marxes ideas have killed more people than any other and yet people still say "if only so and so followed the real communism". Insanity - Trying the same thing over time and time again and expecting different results.

    Heres some heroic examples of communist/socialist leaders with love for the working man (you commies love to argue semantics)

    Stalin
    Mao
    Kim Jung Il
    Castro
    Che
    and all the other rebel communist factions that are mostly dead now


    *typical sympathiser response* "None of them are true communist, they dont follow what communism is supposed to be!"

    again

    Insanity - Trying the same thing over time and time again and expecting different results.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: New Study: The Great Leap Forward killed 45 million Chinese in 4 years

    It is not as much a failure of communism as it is a failure of statism in general.

  10. #10

    Default Re: New Study: The Great Leap Forward killed 45 million Chinese in 4 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Leary View Post
    It is not as much a failure of communism as it is a failure of statism in general.
    The two are seperate? Isnt a communist state always statist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    the great leap forward and the ensuing man made famines were primarily due to
    1) agricultural policies, mainly because mao had no expertise in agriculture.
    2) agricultural policies and comparably crappy infrastructure.
    An excuse that it wasnt communisms fault or were you highlighting one of its most glaring flaws?
    I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you F___ with me, I'll kill you all.
    - Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders

    Nostalgia aint as good as it used to be

  11. #11

    Default Re: New Study: The Great Leap Forward killed 45 million Chinese in 4 years

    The two are seperate? Isnt a communist state always statist.
    Well most communists are statists, but not all statists are communist or even left wing. Statists are people that want to use state power to run society. They may differ on ends but the means they use are the same. The great leap forward just made it clear that the state is not omnipotent. Give it total power and the results will be catastrophic.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: New Study: The Great Leap Forward killed 45 million Chinese in 4 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickle_mole View Post
    The two are seperate? Isnt a communist state always statist.

    An excuse that it wasnt communisms fault or were you highlighting one of its most glaring flaws?
    simply blaming human actions on an ideology is silly and simplistic; it's like blaming the genocide of american indians on democracy, or apartheid segregation on capitalism. it doesnt answer the failures of xyz government.

    all ideologies are pipe dreams and have flaws, because of human nature; i'd consider many democracies today to be failures, having degenerated into cliquish cabals of oligarchies-no different to those seen in communist nations. the only difference is the relatively higher living standard allows for more humane methods of social control.
    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    Mao hate Stalin, however.
    i thought mao respected stalin, it was khruschev he didnt get along with, innit?

  13. #13

    Default Re: New Study: The Great Leap Forward killed 45 million Chinese in 4 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Marechal Ney View Post
    Why must Mao have completely misinterpreted Marx and then given Socialism such a bad name...imagine how much better the world would be is people didn't use The Great Leap Forward as an example of Socialism, as they always do...
    Pardon me but who gave socialism a good name?
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  14. #14

    Default Re: New Study: The Great Leap Forward killed 45 million Chinese in 4 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickle_mole View Post
    Heres some heroic examples of communist/socialist leaders with love for the working man (you commies love to argue semantics)

    Stalin
    Mao
    Kim Jung Il
    Castro
    Che
    Ho Chi Minh
    Josip Broz Tito
    Lin Biao
    Zhu De
    Leon Trotsky...

    To add to your list of heroic examples.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    Pardon me but who gave socialism a good name?
    Adolf Hitler.

    This is a ridiculous arguement for why communism is bad. Instead of arguing ideology, you should be debating the man. Mao Tse-Tung was a great revolutionary and a good soldier, but he was no economist, and a horrible farmer. His leadership won a civil war and unified the Chinese state, but his policies afterwards did a lot of damage to the country. If Mao had died in 49' we would be talking about him as a great figure head of the 20th century.

    I can begin explaining why other communist leaders prove that communism is a better government than capitalism, likewise I can give a good list of capitalists, who are heroic examples of why capitalism is bad. However that wouldn't prove anything, except that I am stupid, and can only accept things in absolute.

    "Communism is evil. Capitalism is not perfect, but good." Is so simplistic, it doesn't even warrant a response. There is a time and place for ideas from both ideologies, 21st century, globalised world is not a good year for communism, unless in 2010 - you are living in a corrupt, capitalist dictatorship 19th century, 3rd world country, and the rich to poor gab is way to big.
    Last edited by Chukada1; September 19, 2010 at 06:43 PM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: New Study: The Great Leap Forward killed 45 million Chinese in 4 years

    LOL? that's the most retarded thing I've heard. I just love it when randomers who haven't even got a university degree write something controversial, and then get taken seriously.

    In reality: The reason of the high death tolls during Mao's rule are many. For example, the already HUGE Chinese population, lots of natural deaths, famines, administrative incompetence (not a Maoist phenomenom) et cetra were claimed 2 be "BECAUSE OF THE COMMIES!!!!". Of course we have results of Mao's policies as well.
    Last edited by Nikitn; September 17, 2010 at 02:26 PM.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: New Study: The Great Leap Forward killed 45 million Chinese in 4 years

    If it is so retarded, then why don't you post some sources that ptove this wrong.

  17. #17

    Default Re: New Study: The Great Leap Forward killed 45 million Chinese in 4 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirov123 View Post
    LOL? that's the most retarded thing I've heard. I just love it when randomers who haven't even got a university degree write something controversial, and then get taken seriously.

    In reality: The reason of the high death tolls during Mao's rule are many. For example, the already HUGE Chinese population, lots of natural deaths, famines, administrative incompetence (not a Maoist phenomenom) et cetra were claimed 2 be "BECAUSE OF THE COMMIES!!!!". Of course we have results of Mao's policies as well.
    I honestly cannot tell whether that was attacking me or someone else...you appear to agree with my opinions, but I am the only person who wrote something decently controversial...

    Sorry, I have difficulty understanding this kind of thing in forums

  18. #18

    Default Re: New Study: The Great Leap Forward killed 45 million Chinese in 4 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Marechal Ney View Post
    I honestly cannot tell whether that was attacking me or someone else...you appear to agree with my opinions, but I am the only person who wrote something decently controversial...

    Sorry, I have difficulty understanding this kind of thing in forums
    No I was talking about that guy in the OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    I don't remember anyone ever agree with you before... I demand you dig out that thread as proof.
    I think it was the Chinese-Vietnam war thread.

  19. #19

    Default Re: New Study: The Great Leap Forward killed 45 million Chinese in 4 years

    I remember there was a similar discussion in the VV, and the local Chinese members came to the conclusion that I posted, i.e.

    "Mao was not a Totalitarianist iron fisted dictator, ala Stalin.". They claimed the death toll was so big due to incompetency more than anything.

  20. #20
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: New Study: The Great Leap Forward killed 45 million Chinese in 4 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirov123 View Post
    I remember there was a similar discussion in the VV, and the local Chinese members came to the conclusion that I posted, i.e.

    "Mao was not a Totalitarianist iron fisted dictator, ala Stalin.". They claimed the death toll was so big due to incompetency more than anything.
    I don't remember anyone ever agree with you before... I demand you dig out that thread as proof.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

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