Rice signs US-Romania bases deal - Rice admits "camps" are real.

[bigfootedfred]

US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has signed a deal allowing the US to use military bases in Romania.
It is the first such deal to be signed with a former communist country in eastern Europe.
Ms Rice arrived in Romania from Germany, on the second leg of a European tour overshadowed by a controversy about CIA operations.
She stressed that the US does not carry out or condone torture, but did not comment on alleged secret CIA prisons.
She has defended the CIA practice of "renditions" - secretly transferring terror suspects to third countries.
There is widespread concern across Europe about reports of secret CIA "rendition" flights from European countries and claims that the CIA used some prisons in eastern Europe outside international law.

War on terror
American civil rights campaigners are taking legal action against the US government over the case of a Lebanese-born German national - Khaled al-Masri - allegedly abducted by the CIA.

We will live up... to our commitments under our laws, and to our international obligations
Condoleezza Rice
German Chancellor Angela Merkel told a joint news conference that democratic rules should be adhered to, but added that intelligence services must be able to do their job.
Ms Rice said the US would fulfil its "international obligations" and would seek to rectify any mistakes made.
Romania is one of the countries that human rights activists believe hosted a CIA secret prison - a charge the Romanian government denies.
"It was never the case of Romania hosting any facilities like prisons," Romania's Foreign Minister Mihai-Razvan Ungureanu told the BBC.

Loyal ally
He signed the bases deal with Ms Rice, who praised Romania as one of Washington's "best allies".
Under the bases agreement, the US military will have access to Mihail Kogalniceanu air base in south-east Romania, just inland from the Black Sea.
It is part of the planned redeployment of US forces in Europe, the BBC's defence and security correspondent Rob Watson reports.
The plan, first announced last year by the Pentagon, involves both the reduction and repositioning of American troops in Europe.

Some bases are being closed in western Europe, with new ones to be opened in the east.

It is a strategic shift intended to place US forces closer to potential areas of conflict in North Africa, the Middle East and Central Asia, our correspondent says.

Romania hopes the basing agreement will bring both diplomatic and economic gains, he says.

Romania assured the US on Tuesday that it would not withdraw its contingent of 860 troops from Iraq.

Ms Rice will later travel to Kiev and Brussels.

source
SO

NOW we know.

[Francisco Montana]

(For the record, it's not Ms Rice (how insulting) it's either Secretary Rice or Dr. Rice.)

Anyway, if we are finished dimishing her great accomplishments, I think the meeting between Secretary Rice and German Chancellor Angela Merkel was healthy for our relationship with Germany. It sounds like both sides were consilitory in tone, and that's a good thing.

As for Romania, I think it's great we are able to work with a broader range of Euroasian nations. Alot of these eastern european nations still have the taste of Soviet aggression in their mouths and want a strong friend in the West to help assure them it won't happen again.

[ThiudareiksGunthigg]

As for Romania, I think it's great we are able to work with a broader range of Euroasian nations. Alot of these eastern european nations still have the taste of Soviet aggression in their mouths and want a strong friend in the West to help assure them it won't happen again.

And their background as a Soviet satellite also means they probably won't be too bothered about people being 'disappeared' into secret camps where they suffer 'non-torture' like sleep deprivation, stress positions and water-boarding. These techniques were all used by the 'Evil Empire'.

But that was done by evil commies, so it was bad. This is different - it's freedom-loving American non-torture. Dubya said so: 'We do not torture'.

And would he lie/dissemble/fumble around the edges of the truth? Honest, smart, noble Dubya?

[bigfootedfred]

the message we are being given here is,

"bug off, we are america, we do what we want, and you just be quiet and accept it or else"

they arent even bothering to lie about it.
they feel they are so powerfull they can do anything. mayb they are right.

[Dromikaites]

And their background as a Soviet satellite also means they probably won't be too bothered about people being 'disappeared' into secret camps where they suffer 'non-torture' like sleep deprivation, stress positions and water-boarding. These techniques were all used by the 'Evil Empire'.

Not quite so: the news CIA may have used Romanian facilites for "non-torture" prompted the Romanian president to invite the journalists to visit the alleged CIA detention centers and interview the Romanian personnel working there. Besides, in Romania nothing can remain secret for more than 24 hrs

There are several reasons why Romania would not get into the "non-torture" business on behalf of US:
1) It would damage its relations with EU less than 1 year and a half before its scheduled ascenssion to EU (January 1st 2007). EU officials are present in Romania at all levels, keeping a close eye on what's going on so I really doubt they would have missed spotting something like that.
2) It would damage Romania's position in the Middle East. Since the communist times Romania has developped special relations with all the countries in the area. Romanians specialize in the delicate game of being friends with both sides in a conflict. For instance it was among the first countries in the world to recognize Palestine as a state in the '60s and in the same time it was the only communist state not to break its diplomatic relations with Israel. Which means that at official events the Israeli and Palestinian ambassadors were meeting under the same roof in Bucharest Those special relations explain why the Romanian troops in Iraq had so far zero casualties while being the 4th largest non-US contingent there (3rd largest after the Italians withdraw). It also explains why this summer the Romanian secret services managed to free not only the 3 Romanian journalists held hostage there but also the French journalist Florence Aubenas and her Iraqi guide. That prompted the French government to officially thank the Romanian government for its role in the operation.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...061502160.html
http://www.theage.com.au/news/World/...645845414.html
Bottom line is if you have the kind of intelligence gathering apparatus Romania has in the Middle East, you don't need to use torture. Not even for doing a service to the American friends. It's cleaner to sell them (or, politically correct - to share with them) the information gather through spies and informants.

[Francisco Montana]

Not quite so: the news CIA may have used Romanian facilites for "non-torture" prompted the Romanian president to invite the journalists to visit the alleged CIA detention centers and interview the Romanian personnel working there. Besides, in Romania nothing can remain secret for more than 24 hrs

There are several reasons why Romania would not get into the "non-torture" business on behalf of US:
1) It would damage its relations with EU less than 1 year and a half before its scheduled ascenssion to EU (January 1st 2007). EU officials are present in Romania at all levels, keeping a close eye on what's going on so I really doubt they would have missed spotting something like that.
2) It would damage Romania's position in the Middle East. Since the communist times Romania has developped special relations with all the countries in the area. Romanians specialize in the delicate game of being friends with both sides in a conflict. For instance it was among the first countries in the world to recognize Palestine as a state in the '60s and in the same time it was the only communist state not to break its diplomatic relations with Israel. Which means that at official events the Israeli and Palestinian ambassadors were meeting under the same roof in Bucharest Those special relations explain why the Romanian troops in Iraq had so far zero casualties while being the 4th largest non-US contingent there (3rd largest after the Italians withdraw). It also explains why this summer the Romanian secret services managed to free not only the 3 Romanian journalists held hostage there but also the French journalist Florence Aubenas and her Iraqi guide. That prompted the French government to officially thank the Romanian government for its role in the operation.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...061502160.html
http://www.theage.com.au/news/World/...645845414.html
Bottom line is if you have the kind of intelligence gathering apparatus Romania has in the Middle East, you don't need to use torture. Not even for doing a service to the American friends. It's cleaner to sell them (or, politically correct - to share with them) the information gather through spies and informants.

Good post, good info. And btw, TY Romania.

[bigfootedfred]

@Dromikaites

may i quote to you the news report.

......She has defended the CIA practice of "renditions" - secretly transferring terror suspects to third countries.
There is widespread concern across Europe about reports of secret CIA "rendition" flights from European countries and claims that the CIA used some prisons in eastern Europe outside international law.

she did not say "in romania" but she has as good as clarfiyed the exsitance of "renditions"

[Dromikaites]

@Dromikaites
she did not say "in romania" but she has as good as clarfiyed the exsitance of "renditions"

Yeah, the fact she admitted the "renditions" is one thing. Having those terrorists "processed" in secret camps in Romania is another thing. I only doubt they were tortured here, not that the Americans are "non-torturing" them elswhere.

Romania has too much to lose and absolutely nothing to gain from getting into the "non-torture" business. The American bases in Romania are something the US wanted and Romania was interested in having, considering the Russian bear is not too far away. Since the Americans wanted to be here anyway, Romania didn't have to allow "non-torturing" on its territory in order to get those bases.

3 hours ago the Russian government threatened it may pull out of the Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe because of the soon-to-be-opened US military bases in Romania. It may be that the so called "Eastern European prisons" story was cooked in Moskow by combining 2 true stories: the "renditions" and the fact US will have military bases in Eastern Europe

[Farnan]

So they sign a treaty, and it means that we are forcing other nations to do what we want?

[Last Roman]

do i sense a tone of sarcasm ThiudareiksGunthigg?

So i dont get a spam warning, this issue is indeed a iffy one. I think that if we got caught doing torture, there might be an outrage not only from without but also inside the US. But of course our government hasen't been the model of honesty either

[Rapax]

This might be an interesting read on the subject:
http://www.truthout.org/docs_05/011005B.shtml

[Erik]

She stressed that the US does not carry out or condone torture, but did not comment on alleged secret CIA prisons.

I wonder how long it wil take her to come back on that.

Meanwhile it's interesting to see my country is going to pull out of Afghanistan because of this.
We simply can't operate there if we can't be sure the people we arrest won't end up in secret torture/"non-torture" camps.
I'm so happy my government is finally taking a principle stance in stead of just being the slave of America.

[Francisco Montana]

the message we are being given here is,

"bug off, we are america, we do what we want, and you just be quiet and accept it or else"

they arent even bothering to lie about it.
they feel they are so powerfull they can do anything. mayb they are right.

Some of us still believe there is good and evil in the world. Not these 'shades of grey' the left would have you believe in.

We aren't perfect but our 'sleep deprevation' and 'humiliation' tactics are not torture. Oooh, poor murderer was embarrased by some prison guards.

Give me a break. You guys are very cute sitting on your high horses while others in the world are actually charged with protecting us from murderers who would just assume tear your eyeball out and show it to you right before they lop off your head.

And you are worried about 'sleep deprevation' and such.

Cry me a river.

[PacSubCom]

...and such.

Cry me a river.

And such.

[Erik]

Some of us still believe there is good and evil in the world. Not these 'shades of grey' the left would have you believe in.

You should realy read the "Power if nightmares" thread, and watch the "Baby It's Cold Outside" video.
The video explains how the neo-cons created the idea of the good Us vs the evil communists/terrorists (according to the neo-cons all terrorits organizations were controlled by the USSR)

[Francisco Montana]

You should realy read the "Power if nightmares" thread, and watch the "Baby It's Cold Outside" video.
The video explains how the neo-cons created the idea of the good Us vs the evil communists/terrorists (according to the neo-cons all terrorits organizations were controlled by the USSR)

Books blaming the right written by the left.

(Not that I don't like to read the other side's propaganda. So thanks! I may have to check them out! )

[imb39]

Books blaming the right written by the left.

(Not that I don't like to read the other side's propaganda. So thanks! I may have to check them out! )

By the BBC, actually. As an unbiased organisation as you'll ever find! :sweatingb And I know that it is widely admired in America...

[Erik]

Books blaming the right written by the left.

(Not that I don't like to read the other side's propaganda. So thanks! I may have to check them out! )

You don't have to read anything.
It's a propaganda VIDEO!

Anyways, you don't have to agree with it.
It's just interesting to see the neo-cons say exactly the same kind of things you do.

[Francisco Montana]

You don't have to read anything.
It's a propaganda VIDEO!

Anyways, you don't have to agree with it.
It's just interesting to see the neo-cons say exactly the same kind of things you do.

I suppose Fareinheit 9-11 was interesting for the same reason?

(OK, we gotta stop this one on one Erik hehe take it to PMs!)

@alameda:

Then some of you obviously don't like thinking very much. I have no other explanation as to why someone would need to have world politics explained to him in a manner of "these men are good and these men are evil, alright?".

If you believe I don't think alot, well :laughing: You obvioulsy don't know a thing about me!!

As for your one-liner. I do think there is good and evil in the world. You can gloss over the last century of world history all you want, but there is good, and there is evil.

One day when evil bites you in the butt you might recognize it. Then again, maybe not.

[Kanaric]

Of course the camps are real, where else are we going to torture people? We have them in Saudi Arabia as well, just so you know.

BTW its unamerican to support torture, that phrase should **** some people off however if you read the contitution you would know. I really dont care though, this torture has been going on for ages, we lost our moral integrity and values in the cold war so you can't blame Bush for it. Though it makes it ironic that we elected him for moral values.


edit: Why is the "p-word" as in what I do when I drink a lot of beer banned its not offensive.

edit2: if you think torture isn't a shade of grey you are unamerican as well, and amoral at that.