The Power of Nightmares: Baby It's Cold Outside

[Guderian]

I was just watching a BBC documentry on Australian T.V by the name of The Power of Nightmares: Baby It's Cold Outside Part I. It basically deals with the premise that the "evils" of terrorism and communism were greatly exagerated by the Neo conservatives of America. It also claims that both fundemental Islam and the Neo conservative movement were created for the same reason, to stop the decay of society, the decay of social fabric of humanity if you will by the idealists and the individualists. It claims that both American pride and Islamic fantacism were also created to serve this purpose.

It claims that the man that created Islamic nationalism and fundemantalism Sayid Qutb and the man who is responsible for the idelogies of neo conservitism Leo Strauss both belived the same thing, that individualism and freedom led to social decay.

It has interviews with Team B, a think tank created by the neo conservatives to provide an alternative to the CIA's intelligence on the Soviet Union (which said that the Soviet Union was not a big threat to America). These guys came up with claims which had no evidence what so ever, but were taken seriously by succesive US presidents due to the influence of the neo conservative movement. More on Team B:

Team B, came to the conclusion that the Soviets had developed several terrifying new weapons of mass destruction, featuring a nuclear-armed submarine fleet that used a sonar system that didn't depend on sound and was, thus, undetectable with our current technology. When the CIA argued that the economic chaos in the Soviet Union was hindering their ability to produce an air defense system, Team B countered by claiming that the Soviet Union was trying to deceive the American public when in fact their air defense system worked perfectly.Some members were even considering promoting a "first strike policy" against the U.S.S.R.[13][14][15]

The CIA strongly disagreed with Team B's assessments, calling Rumsfeld's position a "complete fiction" and pointing out that the Soviet Union was disintegrating from within, could barely afford to feed their own people, and would collapse within a decade or two if simply left alone.[16] A top CIA analyst called it "a kangaroo court of outside critics all picked from one point of view." [17]

This information was later proven to be false. According to Dr. Anne Cahn (Arms Control and Disarmament Agency, 1977-1980) "if you go through most of Team B's specific allegations about weapons systems, and you just examine them one by one, they were all wrong." The CIA director at the time, George H. W. Bush, concluded that the Team B approach set "in motion a process that lends itself to manipulation for purposes other than estimative accuracy."[18][19]

Paul Warnke, an official at the Arms Control and Disarmament Agency at the time of the Team B wrote:

"Whatever might be said for evaluation of strategic capabilities by a group of outside experts, the impracticality of achieving useful results by ‘independent' analysis of strategic objectives should have been self-evident. Moreover, the futility of the Team B enterprise was assured by the selection of the panel's members. Rather than including a diversity of views ... the Strategic Objectives Panel was composed entirely of individuals who made careers of viewing the Soviet menace with alarm."[20]

Time Editor Strobe Talbott stated in 1990 that Team B's assesmnet was:

"Bush allowed a panel of outsiders, deliberately stacked with hard-liners, to second-guess the agency's findings. Not surprisingly, the result was a depiction of Soviet intentions and capabilities that seemed extreme at the time and looks ludicrous in retrospect."[21]

The motive for these exagerations according to the documentary was to create a myth of a "good" America of whom it's duty was to fight "evils" in the rest of the world. This fitted in with the Leo Strauss theory of creating a myth so as to protect the social fabrics of society which prevent the self destruction which he belived was caused by individualism (and also 20th century relativism, scientism, historicism, and nihilism). This myth was meant to create self confidence within American and along with religion would play a part in stemming the growth of individualism (and also 20th century relativism, scientism, historicism, and nihilism).

Have any of you watched this documentary and if so what are your thoughts?

And please if you don't have anything other than "media propaganda" to say then don't say anything at all unless of course you have evidence.

[Nihil]

Yep, I've seen all three parts. It's very good, but it's pretty futile to discuss this kind of thing with people who refuse to be convinced, so the best he can do is preach to the converted.

The same guy did another excellent documentary called "Century of the Self", which is highly recommended and very funny in places.

[Tom Paine]

Hm, I watched it when it was on the BBC (shock horror); good program, and it really shows how much the threat has been exaggerated.

[Guderian]

I have only seen the first part, it was very good IMO, it confirms alot of views that I had but it also provides evidence and motives which I could never figure out by myself.

@Nihil

Yeah I don't think it will convince people who are not willing to open their mind to these things, but I found it very interesting nonetheless. I will have check out Century of the self as well.

@SQM

As I said I could never figure out why the Bush administration would do these things, I thought it was to get re-elected, but even that seemed far fetched. It was always on my mind that nobody would go that far and put thier country at risk to get re-elected, unless of course they belived it was for a much greater cause. This documentary has given a cause or a motive if you will that I can look furthur into.

[Tom Paine]

Guderian, it did get them re-elected on the fighting terror stuff.

[Guderian]

But I didn't think they would put thier country at risk for the sake of re-election alone, it now seems that wasn't the case, they had other motives as well...they must've known about the risks that a war on terrorism would bring, not to mention a war in Iraq, oil and money might have been incentives, but again I don't think those would be enough to make them put thier country at risk unless they belived in some greater cause. I thought that greater cause was security i.e economic security by securing the Iraqi oil fields, but it seems that it goes much deeper than that...

All very interesting if you ask me, btw the reason why this doco was shown so late on Australian T.V was because of the 2nd Bali Bombings, it was originally meant to shown on the month of July.

[Hanno the Navigator]

I found it very intriguing (the entire series) and it makes you understand some things better; while one may or may not agree with the general conclusion, it's as always the peripheral facts that matter.

Plus, Part 1 hat one of the most hilarious end credits sequences I've ever seen (the dancing mujis)

[Guderian]

Plus, Part 1 hat one of the most hilarious end credits sequences I've ever seen (the dancing mujis)

Ahh damn I missed those, went to make some tea But the music was funny, especially the comedy themed music with Kissinger smiling and laughing.

[Nihil]

The documentary certainly gives some crucial insights into the thinking behind the Bush administration's foreign policy (as well as its dedication to crude propaganda), which is difficult to comprehend without some knowledge of the skewed logic of Neo-conservatism. With acolytes of Strauss like Wolfowitz and Perle pulling the strings in the whitehouse, it all starts to fall into place.

The importance of some great mythical unifying mission to stir up a sense of national identity is a cornerstone to Neocon political theory, along with the importance of religion as a tool of statecraft. The parallels drawn in The Power of Nightmares between how formerly the USSR and now terrorism have been used are very convincing.

On the subject of the fusion of state and religion in Neocon philosophy:

Kristol noted that Strauss' contribution was to help neoconservatives to understand the importance of religion in the political life of a nation. "Religion was not part of elite culture found at places like Harvard," said Kristol. "It was not thought appropriate for highly educated people to learn too much about religion." Straussians, who were not well regarded in the academy, took religion seriously. "They played a very important role in the culture war by keeping neoconservative intellectuals pro-religion," says Kristol. This pro-religion stance gave neoconservative intellectuals a way to influence the wider American culture. Liberal and left intellectuals who disdained religious belief were distrusted by most Americans and this distrust helped check liberal influence and policies.

http://reason.com/rb/rb101701.shtml

Fascinating stuff...

[Wicked]

Not having seen the program itself, I cannot comment on it, but the views (review?) you posted here bugs me a bit.

I was just watching a BBC documentry on Australian T.V by the name of The Power of Nightmares: Baby It's Cold Outside Part I. It basically deals with the premise that the "evils" of terrorism and communism were greatly exagerated by the Neo conservatives of America. It also claims that both fundemental Islam and the Neo conservative movement were created for the same reason, to stop the decay of society, the decay of social fabric of humanity if you will by the idealists and the individualists. It claims that both American pride and Islamic fantacism were also created to serve this purpose.

First off, given your use of quotation marks around "evils"...am I to assume that you consider communism, as practiced by the USSR and its various satellite states and those inspired by it, and international terrorism, to be something other than evils? Just seems pertinent.

Secondly, are you saying that pride in America, patriotism, are the creations of some sinister Neo Con shadow government...? Because that is what you appear to be saying, especially considering how certain groups on this board view anything that hints of patriotism, particularly American.

It claims that the man that created Islamic nationalism and fundemantalism Sayid Qutband the man who is responsible for the idelogies of neo conservitism Leo Strauss both belived the same thing, that individualism and freedom led to social decay.

Islamic nationalism (that "Dar al Islam" crap) and hard-line fundamentalism have been around for about 14 centuries in point of fact...not exactly new kids on the block, the current form it is taking doesn't make the root cause any different, we, as in the Western world, have been at war with it for quite awhile, the "new" tactic of terrorism is more a mark of their having steadily lost the ability to challenge us directly on the battlefield, army to army, nation to nation, than any new concept, it is expanded guerilla warfare with a classical Muslim fundie twist.

It has interviews with Team B, a think tank created by the neo conservatives to provide an alternative to the CIA's intelligence on the Soviet Union (which said that the Soviet Union was not a big threat to America). These guys came up with claims which had no evidence what so ever, but were taken seriously by succesive US presidents due to the influence of the neo conservative movement. More on Team B:

We crap out new think tanks on a daily basis...throw a rock in any direction and you'll cause severe cranial damage to a dozen different ideologues, they all have something to push, and for every one there's a score more second-guessing that one...just the way it is man.

The motive for these exagerations according to the documentary was to create a myth of a "good" America of whom it's duty was to fight "evils" in the rest of the world. This fitted in with the Leo Strauss theory of creating a myth so as to protect the social fabrics of society which prevent the self destruction which he belived was caused by individualism (and also 20th century relativism, scientism, historicism, and nihilism). This myth was meant to create self confidence within American and along with religion would play a part in stemming the growth of individualism (and also 20th century relativism, scientism, historicism, and nihilism).

Not really new either, reactionary forces, how reactionary depending on your POV, have done the same for centuries, and so far as a "Good America" goes, we've been like that since day one, we're the big, ugly, bash-your-face-in godchild of European colonialism & the "White Man's Burden" at their height...deal with it, it has been part of the governing philosophy of this nation for many, many years, and considering some of the cuddly little nations that have graced the world stage at various points since our foundation...it's not that far off, we are one hell of a lot better than most other nations, in every sense of the word, if that gives us a caped crusader attitude at times...it's not really that hard to figure out why.

In any case...I'll be sitting back here laughing my arse off, really guys, by the way some people here talk the American government is the RL version of Pinky & the Brain...every night we hatch a new plan to rule the world...but don't you think that even given how incompetent the Federal government can be...we would have succeeded at least once by now if it were all true?

-Wicked

[Guderian]

First off, given your use of quotation marks around "evils"...am I to assume that you consider communism, as practiced by the USSR and its various satellite states and those inspired by it, and international terrorism, to be something other than evils? Just seems pertinent.

Secondly, are you saying that pride in America, patriotism, are the creations of some sinister Neo Con shadow government...? Because that is what you appear to be saying, especially considering how certain groups on this board view anything that hints of patriotism, particularly American.

I don't belive in "good" and "evil" as moral absolutes. I belive that both the USSR and the USA commited acts which I would consider regressive, destructive and immoral during the cold war. There was no "good" side and no "evil" side. And that is also what the documentary points out.

It is claiming that the Neo conservatives over exagerated the threat of the USSR so that they could claim it was "evil" and America was "good", thereby creating something for Americans to belive in other than the self-interest of individuialism. The same applies to patriotism, they did not create it but they took patriotism to the level it is at today i.e America is good and anyone who opposes it are evil "terrorists" or "communists". You gotta watch the doco Wicked otherwise it just looks like some kooky conspiracy theory.

Islamic nationalism (that "Dar al Islam" crap) and hard-line fundamentalism have been around for about 14 centuries in point of fact...not exactly new kids on the block, the current form it is taking doesn't make the root cause any different, we, as in the Western world, have been at war with it for quite awhile, the "new" tactic of terrorism is more a mark of their having steadily lost the ability to challenge us directly on the battlefield, army to army, nation to nation, than any new concept, it is expanded guerilla warfare with a classical Muslim fundie twist.

The documentary is not saying that hard-line fundamentalism was invented by Qutb, but that the current trend was due to his influence. And his influence is what led Islam to the current state it is in the Middle East. Again you have to watch the documentary.

We crap out new think tanks on a daily basis...throw a rock in any direction and you'll cause severe cranial damage to a dozen different ideologues, they all have something to push, and for every one there's a score more second-guessing that one...just the way it is man.

The difference between this and other think tank is that it was created specifically to find "alternatives" to CIA intelligence concerning the USSR so that it could be provided to the president. And these guys came up with alternatives alright, the problem was they lacked any evidence to support these alternatives. And thier "intelligence" was used to influence succesive presidents, most of whom did not buy into it at first. The member of Team B says something like "reagan was opposed to the idea that the USSR was evil at first, he thought we could talk with them (the USSR), it took along time for us to convince him to our side" (that's not a direct quote, just a summary of what i remember).

Not really new either, reactionary forces, how reactionary depending on your POV, have done the same for centuries, and so far as a "Good America" goes, we've been like that since day one, we're the big, ugly, bash-your-face-in godchild of European colonialism & the "White Man's Burden" at their height...deal with it, it has been part of the governing philosophy of this nation for many, many years, and considering some of the cuddly little nations that have graced the world stage at various points since our foundation...it's not that far off, we are one hell of a lot better than most other nations, in every sense of the word, if that gives us a caped crusader attitude at times...it's not really that hard to figure out why.

The documentary was not claiming it was new, just the fact that it has been exagerated by the neo cons. There is partiotism as in nationalism, i.e this is my country so I support it and then there is actually beliving that everyone else is evil but my country is good. It was claiming that this was related to influnce by Leo Strauss. To get into the perspective of the doco you have to read up on Leo Strauss. Either that or watch the actual doco.

In any case...I'll be sitting back here laughing my arse off, really guys, by the way some people here talk the American government is the RL version of Pinky & the Brain...every night we hatch a new plan to rule the world...but don't you think that even given how incompetent the Federal government can be...we would have succeeded at least once by now if it were all true?

That's not what the documentary is claiming.

Btw Wicked I thought you were an Aussie...

[Wicked]

Well...you had a pretty balanced reply there, answered my immediate questions perfectly; it appears I'll need to hunt around for this doc, sounds interesting.

Btw Wicked I thought you were an Aussie...

Hehe, not that I'm aware of...on the other hand...part of the Aussie harem...honourary drinking mate perhaps?

Just refer to me as "Cousin Bob...we don't talk about him in polite society...he's suffering from delusions of being a Republican unfortunately...very sad".

-Wicked

[the_mango55]

Not really new either, reactionary forces, how reactionary depending on your POV, have done the same for centuries, and so far as a "Good America" goes, we've been like that since day one, we're the big, ugly, bash-your-face-in godchild of European colonialism & the "White Man's Burden" at their height...deal with it, it has been part of the governing philosophy of this nation for many, many years, and considering some of the cuddly little nations that have graced the world stage at various points since our foundation...it's not that far off, we are one hell of a lot better than most other nations, in every sense of the word, if that gives us a caped crusader attitude at times...it's not really that hard to figure out why.

In any case...I'll be sitting back here laughing my arse off, really guys, by the way some people here talk the American government is the RL version of Pinky & the Brain...every night we hatch a new plan to rule the world...but don't you think that even given how incompetent the Federal government can be...we would have succeeded at least once by now if it were all true?

Wow, great post wicked, you summed up my feelings about America perfectly.

[Francisco Montana]

Wow, great post wicked, you summed up my feelings about America perfectly.

Yep, thanks Wicked. Saved me a good amount of time and effort.

Salutes.

[Tom Paine]

I don't know if it'll do it with this one, but the BBC has a habit of putting some things onto videos and DVDs... if you're in luck they'll do that.

[Wicked]

I don't know if it'll do it with this one, but the BBC has a habit of putting some things onto videos and DVDs... if you're in luck they'll do that.

Oh, I imagine I can get a hold of it a little faster than that...

-Wicked

[Guderian]

Yeah it is not really an attack on America or even the American government. What it is trying to do is prove that terrorism is not as much of a threat as claimed by the Neo Cons, it is also trying to provide motives as to why the Neo Cons would exagerate the threat. That's in part I anyway, still waiting for the rest of it...

Hehe, not that I'm aware of...on the other hand...part of the Aussie harem...honourary drinking mate perhaps?

Doh, I remember seeing you on the Pub thread, which led me to belive you were an Aussie...Cousin bob it is then

[MadKow]

You can find transcripts for at least the 2nd and 3rd episodes in http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/ , the 1st episode seems to have been lost. Do a search for The Power of Nightmares. They used to have the videos in Real Player format but they are no longer available.

I found the documentary truely enlightening.

Did some further search and this http://marc.perkel.com/archives/000753.html seems to have them all in wmv format

[Fenris]

Some people would say about this documentary: Oh those who made this are probably fat and ugly leftishs american haters, therefor I will ignore all the facts.

[Tom Paine]

Well given one of the interviewees is Paul Wolfowitz, as far as I remember...