RSII Legion Composition and Tracking

[Dekker]

Seeing a lot of misinformation here.
The game tracks individual experience, but displays unit experience.

If you retrain a silver chevron unit that is down to 10 men, you will not get an extra 200 silver chevron-standard men, you will get 200 raw recruits and then the game will display an average of the experience within your unit.

This used to come up a lot when people used cavalry wedges: the game sorts your cavalry wedge so that they line up in order of experience, with the most experienced horseman at the front. People used to complain because if they did a lot of cavalry charges in wedge formation, they would find that despite killing lots of the enemy, their units experience would drop - because the men at the front were getting killed, and they represented a disproportionately high percentage of the unit's average experience.

A simple way to see this effect: try merging a handful of battle-weakened units in different patterns - you can make experience chevrons "disappear" and "reappear" as the average experience in each unit changes.



In a 0-turn mod, the ability to retrain and the ability to levy new units is basically identical. It just depends whether you'd rather have a single crack unit of super-experienced troops, or have each unit containing a handful of experience amidst the rookies - which will look less impressive on the unit card, but will still tell in battle.

In the polybian units, I use the former - because it soon gives you distinguishable principes (merged units, where all the experience lies) and hastati (your new recruits); haven't reached the imperials yet, but think I might do it the other way round at that stage.

[Marcus Publius]

Thanks for the info Dekker it's good to know that retrain feature is not a cheat created to exploit the AI.

[chris10]

Seeing a lot of misinformation here.
The game tracks individual experience, but displays unit experience.

If you retrain a silver chevron unit that is down to 10 men, you will not get an extra 200 silver chevron-standard men, you will get 200 raw recruits and then the game will display an average of the experience within your unit.

This used to come up a lot when people used cavalry wedges: the game sorts your cavalry wedge so that they line up in order of experience, with the most experienced horseman at the front. People used to complain because if they did a lot of cavalry charges in wedge formation, they would find that despite killing lots of the enemy, their units experience would drop - because the men at the front were getting killed, and they represented a disproportionately high percentage of the unit's average experience.

A simple way to see this effect: try merging a handful of battle-weakened units in different patterns - you can make experience chevrons "disappear" and "reappear" as the average experience in each unit changes.

Yes and no....the exploit is still there
Experience will ONLY be taken into account if you merge units into each other manually by drag and draw which means if I have a 10 men 2 silver chevron unit and I drag manually a 160 men 1 bronze chevron unit into the silver one experience will drop maybe to 2 or 3 bronze chevrons because of tracking individual experience and then showing overall experience...you right on this one...
but....
If you retrain a 10 men 2 silver chevron unit in a city you get a full unit of 202 men 2 silver chevron experience...despite the fact that a barrack could/should not provide 192 2 silver chevron veterans to make a full unit but there it goes.
This was the case in vanilla so it is the case for RSII

[Dekker]

Yes and no....the exploit is still there
Experience will ONLY be taken into account if you merge units into each other manually by drag and draw which means if I have a 10 men 2 silver chevron unit and I drag manually a 160 men 1 bronze chevron unit into the silver one experience will drop maybe to 2 or 3 bronze chevrons because of tracking individual experience and then showing overall experience...you right on this one...
but....
If you retrain a 10 men 2 silver chevron unit in a city you get a full unit of 202 men 2 silver chevron experience...despite the fact that a barrack could/should not provide 192 2 silver chevron veterans to make a full unit but there it goes.
This was the case in vanilla so it is the case for RSII

Really? Could've sworn that wasn't the case.
But, then as I said, I haven't been retraining my republican legions, and prior to RS2 it's been a while since I played RTW, so maybe I'm just remembering wrong.
Apologies to anyone misinformed by me.

[Beetlecat]

Really? Could've sworn that wasn't the case.
But, then as I said, I haven't been retraining my republican legions, and prior to RS2 it's been a while since I played RTW, so maybe I'm just remembering wrong.
Apologies to anyone misinformed by me.

I'm feeling the same sense of doubt about that -- retraining always drops the average experience of the unit -- unless you're somehow training recruits in a city that offers equal experience bonuses to new units.

[Striker]

I'm feeling the same sense of doubt about that -- retraining always drops the average experience of the unit -- unless you're somehow training recruits in a city that offers equal experience bonuses to new units.

Retraining a unit in a city depending of how much men it lost WILL drop it's experience, merging units can make it lower, equal or even higher.

[chris10]

I'm feeling the same sense of doubt about that -- retraining always drops the average experience of the unit -- unless you're somehow training recruits in a city that offers equal experience bonuses to new units.

Retraining a unit in a city depending of how much men it lost WILL drop it's experience, merging units can make it lower, equal or even higher.

...Little by little I getting sick repeating this guys :
In Shogun and Medival experience was depleted when retraining units in citys but...

In ROME TW units experience will NOT, I repeat NOT, be diluted when retrained in a city. This was already the point of massive discussions among the comunity back in 2005/2006. While the original manual stated that replacements are green very soon players found out that they are not and that retrained units keept all their experience when refilled in citys.
However this is not the case if you merge units manually into each other,then indeed experience is calculated properly.
As far as I know there has never been an oficial statement from Creative Assembly if this was a simple oversight, a bug or an intentional feature but there it is. Having in mind that each level of exp. provides +1 attack/+1 defence this must be considered a massive exploit of the game mechanics leading finally to über-units. Same problem affects M2TW

For those of you whose second name is the "Doubting Thomas" I recommend you to bring a unit up to 2 or 3 gold chevrons and then let it go down in battle to a few man...get it retrained in a city...and miracolously..it will come out fully refilled and still with same experience...maybe you will finally get the catch then...

Or if you have time and energy you can dig up the forum on forums.totalwar.org and get confirmation from there.

Whatever you prefer..it will not change the facts...

P.S The picture is taken from the official Total War Forum from a player who rolled out an entire gold chevron army in vanilla RTW with the retraining exploit
EDIT: Pic is from M2TW...sloppy mistake..but game mechanic is the same

[Wilhelm von Nassau]

Is there an updated AOR map for the legions? Would be helpful in designating economic and fortified regions.

[Praetorian_BGX]

Is there an updated AOR map for the legions? Would be helpful in designating economic and fortified regions.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...57#post8149657

P.S The picture is taken from the official Total War Forum from a player who rolled out an entire gold chevron army in vanilla RTW with the retraining exploit

This is from MTW2 as i remember.

On the way you represented it - yes its exploit. But i never thought that this experience is actually representing individual unit experience gained in battle. Simply, there is no soldiers/humans that they can live and fight over 100 years. For me it represents unit/cohort standards that they earned through war. New soldiers will use that battle or training experience from past generations and have higher morale and slightly better stats. That's the way im looking on it and it doesn't bother me at all.

[chris10]

This is from MTW2 as i remember.

Sorry mate...yes you right...pic is from M2TW...sloppy mistake on my side...
anyway, I could do the same in no time in my actual RSII campaing and post the screen but I think I made the point pretty clear...
a 3 gold chevron army can take on 4 to 5 enemy armys at once without having a lot of casualties...
I dont really think that this is still fun with all the crazy attack and defense bonuses + most likely gold armour and silver weapons...naaaaah....
I think it would be easier to cheat directly by giving my units higher stats instead of using the training exploit and reason why its ok to do it that way but anybody is free to play the game as he like ...
and....well....... I too like to create 1!!! 2-3 gold chevron unit for each legion ...
funny enough though that the retrain exploit is still object of some discussion..maybe its another generation...I dont know...

[Wilhelm von Nassau]

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...57#post8149657

Thank you! +rep

[Drowsy]

I tryed retraining on Italian Soil once. The sky crumbled, the gods abandoned me, the senate crucified my Generals, my veterans where disbanded and resettled. All in all i don't recommend it

[Dramatic Cat]

superb.

nice work man!

[Centurion Cato]

It's just different styles of play.

I have no problem retraining my troops. I fight a battle with a Legion, and then use the cohort with the most casualties to replenish my other cohorts. The weakened unit is then taken out of the line to join with supporting auxilia, often in a fort, etc. I then send that unit home to be retrained. I don't think of this as too anti-historical, or a cheat.
Think of it this way; I send the remains of a cohort, say 30 men with 2 silver chevrons home to recruit. They are joined by fit new young recruits back in Italy. Why shouldn't those 172 troops benefit from the experience of those 30 men? The original 30 are the toughest SOBs of their cohort; they were at the forefront of a great roman victory where they sustained heavy losses, but slew huge numbers of enemies. Those original 30 are now the centurions, optios and squad leaders of the cohort. They share the lessons of battle and war with their fellow soldiers, train them up, tell them to obey that regulation, disobey this one, etc.
Band of Brothers is a good example. After Bastogne, Easy Company got a lot of new replacements and a new CO, but they still had those battle-hardened NCOs and officers, it was still a highly respected combat unit.
Also, when the Romans gave awards, the units bore them down the centuries. It's like the British Grenadiers today having all the major battles they fought in listed on the Regimental Colour. We've learnt a lot about Roman military structures from the awards and decorations given out to different cohorts and centuries.

Retraining like that is just how I like to do it. It builds the immersion - I've got a few crack legions - XV Apollinaris on the Danube, all with 2 and 3 silver chevrons, XI is in similar trim and is marching through North Africa to reinforce the East. III Gallica is on the Rhine, all with 1 & 2 gold chevrons. I always put my faction heir in command. If it's a tough fight ahead, I'll send them in.

I had an absolutely awesome VIII Augusta, they'd reconquered Italy in the 2nd rebellion, after having fought against the Arverni and Dacians. I'd sent them into Germany - at this point they all had almost three silver chevrons, including the cav and auxilia cohorts in the legion - to take on three stacks of Cimbri. I'd left the battle to the end of the turn, but I forgot about them and hit end turn - a fourth stack came out of nowhere and attacked. I destroyed the first, but they had cavalry that wore me down. The second stack was really tough, and tore into me. Then the third arrived and slugged it out with the VIII until the last handfuls of men were running. I haven't recruited another VIII since. I am in the unique position of knowing exactly how Augustus and Varus both felt!

I do find that if a unit has sustained heavy casualties, it will lose a few chevrons after retraining. Not sure why people are encountering different things.

[Beetlecat]

Any thoughts on expanding the xls to include the performance charge and pre-named (polybian) legions?

[Wolfstorm999]

Just a question: how I can combine the specifics in this thread with the massalian troops?

Im currently using six thorakitais, four hoplites, four heavy spearmen and three horsemen, plus the tribunus militi, of course. The massalians are being used as a kind of pre-marian auxiliary cohort. Should I put velites with them, and remove the heavy spearmen? I just beated the arverni very badly, near Emporiae, using this combination of massalian forces. Practically Im treating Massalia as a kind of sub-faction already...

[Jochi]

Why do the auxilia legions have different basecohorts in comparison too the main one? I mean if you want them to replace losses than you need the same units to stack it up with ?

[Gylippus]

Cool thread. Just saw it.

Amazed though that you can afford to keep enough stacks like that to do well in the game. Right now (617) I am at war with Macedon, Boii, Carthage, Greek and Arverni factions, plus rebels and free people. I'm sure it won't be long before the German tribes join in!

I have my stacks like this for reasons of economy rather than historical accuracy

1 General
1 First Cohort
4 Cohort
5 Auxilia
5 Post Marian Reform Roman Skirmishers (forgotten their real name!)
2 Cavalry
2 Archers

[czePowerslave]

About this - someone managed to make this into a full timescale sheet? Covering everything from pre-marian up to imperial legions + auxilia and typos?

[johnnieangel]

strong work..nice follow up to century's excel sheet!