Death Penalty Protesters

[Major König]

Here in my home state of California people are protesting to grant clemency to Tookie Williams, a former 'crips' street gang leader who killed four people in a robbery. Governor Arnold Schwarznegger(however you spell it) is going to a hearing to see whether he will grant this man clemency. The man killed for people, and caused numerous more deaths by being involved with a nationwide gang. What im asking is: Is clemency even an option here? And why is this man so special that he should be granted clemency?

[Erik]

Many people are principally against the death penaly, people like me.
Why exactly are they protesting?

A few days ago America had it's 1000th (IIRC) death penalty.
Maybe people who oppose the death penalty just use this time to express their opinions.

[Kino]

Deleted by user.

[Erik]

It was the law when he killed those people, that Murder = Death Penalty. So he took the risk and should die.

Murder doesn't = death penalty.
Only some murderers get the death penalty.



I dug up some stats here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital..._United_States
It turns out that since 1976 only 11 people got the death penalty in California. (out of 1001 total in the US).
But 648 people are currently on "death row" in California.
This means California has the highest number of people on death row, but a very low number of people actually executed.

two questions:
-Why is this?
-Did people protest against the previous 11 executions?

[balleny]

I oppose the Death Penalty as a law; but if you killed someone while it was law, you should then die. Maybe I'm wrong. I wouldn't want to decide though.

So a) you ae in favor of abolition and b) in case capital punishement is abolished, you want all the 3000 or so people on death row being executed (since it was the law when they commited their crimes)?.

[balleny]

I oppose the Death Penalty as a law; but if you killed someone while it was law, you should then die. Maybe I'm wrong. I wouldn't want to decide though.

So a) you are in favor of abolition and b) in case capital punishement is abolished, you want all the 3000 or so people on death row being executed (since it was the law when they commited their crimes)?.

Why should an animal like that receive mercy?

Maybe because you don't want to become an animal like him?



The only thing I don't like in this case is that many people are only interested in his case because of his celebrity status. If he was the same person but hadn't written any books, the only people campaigning for him would be the human rights groups, but celebrities wouldn't take side and Schwarzenegger would simply ignore it.

[Trajan]

Here in my home state of California people are protesting to grant clemency to Tookie Williams, a former 'crips' street gang leader who killed four people in a robbery. Governor Arnold Schwarznegger(however you spell it) is going to a hearing to see whether he will grant this man clemency. The man killed for people, and caused numerous more deaths by being involved with a nationwide gang. What im asking is: Is clemency even an option here? And why is this man so special that he should be granted clemency?

I also live in California and I'm disgusted with this whole "grant Williams clemency" thing. The man is a brutal murderer who viciously killed 4 people and I believe that he killed more people before that. Why should an animal like that receive mercy? Because he claims that he's a changed man? Because he's a peace activist and tries to convince kids to stay out of gangs? I say to hell with that. This man has to pay for his crimes one way or another. I mean what's next, clemency for Richard Ramirez, aka "The Night Stalker" because he claims he's a changed man? If the Governor grants Williams clemency, it's only because he's looking to get reelected.

[Erik]

Why should an animal like that receive mercy?

It has nothing to do with him.
The death penalty is an act of vengence and only sais something about the people who support it.

This man has to pay for his crimes one way or another.

I agree, so lock him up for the rest of his life.
Even in prison people have the ability to change themselves and lead a worthy life.

[Rapax]

Because he's a peace activist and tries to convince kids to stay out of gangs? I say to hell with that.

You don't think that convincing kids to stay out of gangs is somehow more important than to kill a criminal? He's serving time and that way he's paying for his crimes. What's the point in executing someone who actually helps fighting gang violence by speaking out against it and writing books? Is the satisfaction so great to have him killed?

[danzig]

You don't think that convincing kids to stay out of gangs is somehow more important than to kill a criminal? He's serving time and that way he's paying for his crimes. What's the point in executing someone who actually helps fighting gang violence by speaking out against it and writing books? Is the satisfaction so great to have him killed?

Considering he started the gang to begin with and was one of the first sparks in the entire chain of gang violence then no. The damage has already been done, he has killed people and the begining point of a whole generation of gang violence. Honestly I dont care about Tookie what I find disgusting is all these famous people rally around specific people on death row while ignoring others. Why should Tookie be saved over the others? He still refuses to admit he committed the crimes he was convicted of as well. Any clemency granted to him will simply reenforce the belief that money/power = all you need for justice. Since California has the death penalty there is no reason this guy shouldnt be executed.

[the Black Prince]

Since California has the death penalty there is no reason this guy shouldnt be executed.

so much for certainty of the law. its absolutely absurd that committing an offence in one part of the country should elicite a totally different penalty than committing the exact same offence in some other part of the same country.

[danzig]

so much for certainty of the law. its absolutely absurd that committing an offence in one part of the country should elicite a totally different penalty than committing the exact same offence in some other part of the same country.

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Well you are talking the very basis of how the US works. States have the right to decide how to handle numerous issues of which the death penalty (or lack of one) is one of those. The much heralded state rights, I doubt we'll be willing to break down the very fabric of our society and change our consitution so you dont think its absurd...sorry.

[the_mango55]

so much for certainty of the law. its absolutely absurd that committing an offence in one part of the country should elicite a totally different penalty than committing the exact same offence in some other part of the same country.

The states in this country can have different laws. Some states have the death penalty, some do not. The US is basically a confederation of many countries which have governments too weak to stand on their own, and have agreed to work together for mutual benifit. Just within the area of criminal law, states have different Justice systems, prison systems, police systems (there are thousands of completely independant police systems in the country, local, county, state, and national) I mean Louisiana even uses a version of French Napoleonic Code instead of the English common law we use in the rest of the country.

[imb39]

I'm against execution of prisoners in principle. I believe that the state has no right to kill one of its citizens. The role of law is to apply punishment and justice. Execution is purely about retribution. To quote Gandhi,

'An eye for an eye makes us all blind.'

I also disagree with it because of the possability of a miscarriage of justice. To put it in perspective - if I could guarantee that there would be no murders but I would have to kill one innocent person a month, say, would anyone take up the offer. I sincerely hope not. This is, essentially, what executions attempt to offe, without the guarantee that murder isn't committed.

Now this Tookie Williams sounds like a reprehensible person, so give him life and hard labour.

In terms of prisoners getting clemency from the Governor, there was a similar system in Britain where if a prisoner was offered parole, the Home Secretary could veto it. I believe that this system has now changed and it is left to the judiciary to decide. This is how it should be. Justice should not be left to those who want to be popular. Justice, sometimes, isn't popular.

[Guderian]

Tookie is IMO guilty of the crimes he was convicted of, and deserves life in prison. It can be said this man deserves the death penalty but the problem is that the death penalty can be easily abused. Like in the case of Nguyen Tuong Van, a first time offender convicted of smuggling drugs through Singapore who was hanged. Nguyen Tuong Van in no way deserved to be hanged, he was co-operative with the police, he gave names and sources, he was remorsefull, and most importantly he was a 23 year old first time offender. Meaning there was a good chance that he could have been rehabilitated. Yet he was hanged because of Singapore's mandatory death penalty for drug smugglers. Is this justice? is this fair?

The only way to stop this kind of thing happening in the future is to abolish the death penalty. Therefore I support any protests against the death penalty.

[Trajan]

First off, I would like to say that the death penalty system is screwed up. I still believe that Williams should be killed as ordered by a Jury but scum like Charles Manson and Richard Ramirez should be killed off first. These demons have been sitting in death row far longer and I'm surprised that they want to kill off Williams before them. To those that are strongly against the death penalty, most of you give strong arguments but what do you tell the families of the victims?

[imb39]

To those that are strongly against the death penalty, most of you give strong arguments but what do you tell the families of the victims?

At the end of the day the murdered stay murdered. Even killing the murderer will not fill that void. I know it wouldn't be easy. I also that there would be grief but justice should carry an element of retribution. execution is pure retribution. - No, I wouldn't say this...

Trajan, if I may turn this around, what would you say to someone's family if they were executed by mistake?

[Trajan]

Trajan, if I may turn this around, what would you say to someone's family if they were executed by mistake?

I don't understand. Do you mean an innocent man who was convicted of a crime being executed or what?

[imb39]

I don't understand. Do you mean an innocent man who was convicted of a crime being executed or what?

Yes, what would you say to the family of someone who was executed for something he/she was innocent of? In what way was justice served?

[Trajan]

Yes, what would you say to the family of someone who was executed for something he/she was innocent of? In what way was justice served?

It is true that innocent people have been executed for crimes they did not commit but those are just the victims of a corrupt, no where near perfect and unjust system. I never said that the system is 100% perfect. Bad things happen to the very best of people every day and we always ask why. Why do the good suffer and the bad prosper? That's just the way of life and we all know that stuff happens. What would I say to the family of a person who was wrongfully convicted and then executed? I wouldn't feel sympathy and try to comfort them or tell them that everything’s going to be okay or any other of that type of bull. I would tell them that the best thing to do is to try to prevent this from happening to anybody else by forcing their case onto the media and the Governor or what ever they can do to get their voices heard. I never had a loved one who was wrongfully convicted and executed so I wouldn't really know what do in those situations. Anyways, I hope they give this Williams clemency so that he could continue rotting in prison like he's been doing the past 26 years and get to the real important executions of Ramirez and Manson. Why the heck is Manson still alive anyways? Does he even have an execution date?