Thread: Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress

  1. #2621

    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress

    You are correct, the checkerboard was not officially adopted as the coat of arms of Croatia until the late 15th century, prior to that, the coat of arms were three crowned leopards, firstly white on a red field and later golden a blue field(which was shifted into the CoA of Dalmatia after the 16th century).

    So, for this mods time period, the white leopards on a red field should be more proper.

    Here is the CoA of Croatia on the arms of King Louis I, from the Gelre Armorial(14th century);

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...sdehongrie.jpg

    here is it on a 15th century depiction of Dubrovnik(Ragusa) by Bernard von Breydenbach;

    https://i.imgur.com/IIpc2oS.jpg

    Here is a heraldic reconstruction;

    https://i.imgur.com/FWYsCTk.png

  2. #2622
    Wallachian's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress

    Quote Originally Posted by Tommygunz View Post
    I also wonder whether in this scenario Mladen Šubić would use the red&white Croatian chequy as his CoA (especially with the crown above). It seems more likely to me he would use the CoA of his house - the black wings on the red background which is on some of the Croatian knights that jurcek has shown us (which is an excellent detail, along with f.e. the CoA of house Krčki - just another reason to love this mod's dedication to historical accuracy).

    Maybe the chequy does make more sense, I'm not sure.. I don't have a definite answer but it's worth thinking about I guess.
    You are right Mladen Subic would probably wear the Subic CoA which we have on the Croatian Banderium. But we are using the heraldry for the whole of Croatia. It's a bit of a what it. The player can play as this faction and could manage to defeat Hungary and reclaim the whole of Croatia and break away as an independent state, maybe even claim the crown of Croatia. At one point if we get time and a code we could code all sorts of cool stuff. But for the moment it will just be a tiny faction ready to be wiped out by Hungary (we might script Croatia being a Hungarian vassal).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamlaz View Post
    That province map does not really make sense for the medieval period, it, as usually, wrong for medieval balkan borders, follows the souhern Dalmatian border line set up by the Venetian wars of the 17th and 18th century.

    During the medieval period, Croatia's eastern border fluctuated constantly, but it most often narrowed around the river Neretva to the south;
    I think dcdastro will need to answer this. But he is quite an expert in mapping and borders and uses a paid for mapping system which shows all the borders of states throughout the ages. We also have croatian team members which have not objected to this border. There could still be errors of course so thank you for pointing it out.

  3. #2623
    Hrobatos's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress

    Quote Originally Posted by Tommygunz View Post
    I also wonder whether in this scenario Mladen Šubić would use the red&white Croatian chequy as his CoA (especially with the crown above). It seems more likely to me he would use the CoA of his house - the black wings on the red background which is on some of the Croatian knights that jurcek has shown us (which is an excellent detail, along with f.e. the CoA of house Krčki - just another reason to love this mod's dedication to historical accuracy).

    Maybe the chequy does make more sense, I'm not sure.. I don't have a definite answer but it's worth thinking about I guess.

    Mladen was to be recognozed from Venice as Marquiz of Croatia so he would likely use Croatian CoA

    We use chessboard as main CoA, and 3 Leopard heads on red / blue background as minor CoAs. Those appear on pavise shields for Croatia, and other shields , floating banners and will also be used by bannermen on battlefield.

  4. #2624

    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallachian View Post
    I think dcdastro will need to answer this. But he is quite an expert in mapping and borders and uses a paid for mapping system which shows all the borders of states throughout the ages. We also have croatian team members which have not objected to this border. There could still be errors of course so thank you for pointing it out.

    Well, the issue is that loads of online maps have the same flaw, by using the post 17th century borders of Dalmatia for the Venetian holdings and through it, regardless of the period(even thought Venice did not even move beyond coastal ports until the 1480s) and use the same shape for the western Balkan borders.

    Hell, Venice did not even hold all the major islands until 1482, let alone land territory, yet for simplicity's sake they just use later Venetian territory for reference and this effects depiction of medieval and 16th century Croatia to a great degree since it was largely a littoral kingdom.

    This has sadly been the case for the majority of historical maps, as nobody really cared to fix it from the onstart and the rest just copied from each other.

    Though, perhaps the issue within the team was not historical, but rather a logical one from a dev standpoint, as Bosnia was more important during this period, thus it was given primacy over Croatia when it came to geography and map making, which is absolutely reasonable imo.

  5. #2625
    Hrobatos's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress

    in essence you are right, this is how eastern border of Croatia should be ( 1358 after Peace of Zadar )

    It was done I believe because of Bosnia, which was playable from the start and Croatia has only recently been added. But indeed that border should go a bit further east

    PS I went further to check it, and indeed Tsardoms maps are right. This teritory was gained by Bosnian bans from Subici, after their defeat, and were returned back to Croatia/Hungary by King Louis by 1357. before peace of Zadar, when Bosnia had to recognize autothority of Hungary and become vassal state.
    Last edited by Hrobatos; April 14, 2018 at 11:29 AM.

  6. #2626
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    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress

    Quote Originally Posted by Hrobatos View Post
    in essence you are right, this is how eastern border of Croatia should be ( 1358 after Peace of Zadar )
    Would that patriarchate of Aquileia make a viable faction?

  7. #2627

    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress

    Quote Originally Posted by Hrobatos View Post
    i
    PS I went further to check it, and indeed Tsardoms maps are right. This teritory was gained by Bosnian bans from Subici, after their defeat, and were returned back to Croatia/Hungary by King Louis by 1357. before peace of Zadar, when Bosnia had to recognize autothority of Hungary and become vassal state.
    ?

    Stephen received Hum and Donji Kraji, which is shown on the map.

  8. #2628
    Wallachian's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress

    Quote Originally Posted by LinusLinothorax View Post
    Would that patriarchate of Aquileia make a viable faction?
    Definetly not. We have maxed out all faction slots.

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    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallachian View Post
    Definetly not. We have maxed out all faction slots.
    Yeah I know, I was asking from a historical and geographical perspective. Because from what I've read on Wiki it would in theory seem to make a quite interesting faction.

  10. #2630

    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamlaz View Post
    That province map does not really make sense for the medieval period, it, as usually, wrong for medieval balkan borders, follows the souhern Dalmatian border line set up by the Venetian wars of the 17th and 18th century.

    During the medieval period, Croatia's eastern border fluctuated constantly, but it most often narrowed around the river Neretva to the south;

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    The most Croat of all the Bosnians is depicted in his most famous misal as wearing a similar hat;

    https://i.imgur.com/mO9zf9x.jpg




    No, that is merely a point of discussion by a few, obviously not argued as a claim or fact.
    Most argue that it would be nonsensical to forge such a document.

    It would also be quite strange for his son to inherit the title and, along with the father, hold the title for 49 years, by far the longest of all family reigns holding the title in a single sitting, and for the king to require a civil war to remove him of the same title, if it was not true.
    well opbviousley it is a point of discusion
    Well it could be that hungary couldnt remove him easly from his post cuz he vas strong so maybe they started to acnovledge the forged thing better that then to admit that they lost control of a subject in a game of thrones.

  11. #2631
    Wallachian's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress

    Quote Originally Posted by LinusLinothorax View Post
    Yeah I know, I was asking from a historical and geographical perspective. Because from what I've read on Wiki it would in theory seem to make a quite interesting faction.
    To be honest I still wouldn't see it as a very important potential faction even if we did have more slots. From a personal point of view, if we had more slots I would rather have factions like Bavaria (Louis of Wittselbach Duke of Bavaria was Holy Roman Emperor in 1345 and we have a few Bavarian cities on our map), Albania (some sort of Albanian state like the League of Lezhe or one of the Albanian clans) or even an emergent Poland (again we have a few Polish-Lithuanian cities like Halych etc).

  12. #2632

    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamlaz View Post
    That province map does not really make sense for the medieval period, it, as usually, wrong for medieval balkan borders, follows the souhern Dalmatian border line set up by the Venetian wars of the 17th and 18th century.

    During the medieval period, Croatia's eastern border fluctuated constantly, but it most often narrowed around the river Neretva to the south;

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Mamlaz View Post
    Well, the issue is that loads of online maps have the same flaw, by using the post 17th century borders of Dalmatia for the Venetian holdings and through it, regardless of the period(even thought Venice did not even move beyond coastal ports until the 1480s) and use the same shape for the western Balkan borders.
    [...]
    Though, perhaps the issue within the team was not historical, but rather a logical one from a dev standpoint, as Bosnia was more important during this period, thus it was given primacy over Croatia when it came to geography and map making, which is absolutely reasonable imo.
    Thanks for the comment and your interest in Tsardoms. But the borders I made do make sense for the timeframe of our mod (1345-1530).

    As you said yourself, in the centuries depicted in our mod the borders varied greatly in Croatia (and the Balkans as a whole for that matter). Regarding the Balkans, online maps are not always clear and/or seem reliable, not to mention some may contradict each other and they do not always depict a specific period you are looking to represent when making a map. I've searched online extensively, and I am familiar with the borders presented by you and by Hrobatos.

    Since Tsardoms and modding, more specifically mapping, have been great passions of mine for many years, I purchased a paid software to help me with the mapping, like Wallachian mentioned. It is called Euratlas Periodis Expert and is described as "a database and a historical atlas of Europe with editing functions. It describes the political status of Europe, North Africa and Near East at fixed intervals, from year 1 until year 2000. Stress is put on the precise drawing of territories at one exact instant defined by fixed length intervals, that is the first day of each centennial year". It is very interactive, professional and insanely useful. Here is the website, where you can also download a free demo. List of references from which the map of the Atlas was designed for the year 1400 alone:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    A.D. 1400 References
    AMMAN & SCHIB, Atlas historique de la Suisse, Sauerländer & Co, Aarau, 1958.
    ANDRIJAŠEVIĆ & RASTODER, The History of Montenegro from Ancient Times to 2003, Montenegro Diaspora Centre, Podgorica, 2006.
    ARDELEANU, Ion et al., Atlas Pentru Istoria României, Editura Didacticà si Pedagogicà, Bucuresti, 1983.
    ASSATIANI, Nodar, BENDIANACHVILI, Alexandre , Histoire de la Géorgie, L'Harmattan, Paris, 1997.
    BARDOCZ, Lászlóne et al., Történelmi Vilagatlasz, Cartographia, Budapest, 1998.
    BĔLINA, Pavel, ČORNEJ, Petr et POKORNÝ, Jiří, Histoire des Pays tchèques, Seuil, Paris, 1995.
    BENNASSAR, Bartolomé , Histoire des espagnols : VIe-XXe siècle, Robert Laffont, Paris, 1992.
    BÉRANGER, Jean, Histoire de l’Empire des Habsbourg 1273-1918, Arthème Fayard, Paris, 1990.
    BEREZNAY et al., Atlas of European History, Times Books, London, 1994.
    BERNARD, Antonia, Petite histoire de la Slovénie, Institut d'Études slaves, Paris, 1996.
    BIRKEN, Andreas, Die Provinzen des Osmanischen Reiches, Ludwig Reichert, Wiesbaden, 1976.
    BOUILLET, M.-N., Dictionnaire universel d'histoire et de géographie, Hachette et Cie, Paris, 1863.
    CAFOUREK, Petr, Školni Atlas Československých Dĕjin, Geodeticky a Kartograficky Podnik v Praze, Praha, 1973.
    CARTER, Francis W., Dubrovnik (Ragusa), a classic City-state, Seminar Press, London, 1972.
    CASTELLAN, Georges , Histoire de la Roumanie, P.U.F. Que sais-je?, Paris, 1994.
    CASTELLAN, Georges, VIDAN, Gabrijela , La Croatie, P.U.F. Que sais-je?, Paris, 1998.
    CHAMPONNOIS & de LABRIOLLE, Dictionnaire historique de la Lituanie, Armeline, Crozon, 2001.
    CHANNON, J., Atlas historique de la Russie, Autrement, Paris, 1997.
    CHARMASSON, Thérèse, LELORRAIN, Anne-Marie, SONNET, Martine , Chronologie de l'histoire de France, P.U.F., Paris, 1994.
    CHRISTIANSEN, Eric, The Northern Crusades, Penguin Books, London, 1997.
    CORTAZAR, Fernando García de, Atlas de Historia de España, Planeta, Barcelona, 2005.
    CZAPLINSKI, Władysław et al., The Historical Atlas of Poland, State Cartographical Publishers, Wrocław, 1986.
    DAVIES, John, A History of Wales, Penguin Books, London, 1994.
    DEGN, Christian, Schleswig-Holstein eine Landesgeschichte : Historischer Atlas, Wachholtz Verlag, Neumünster, 1995.
    DIEHL, Charles, La République de Venise, Flammarion, Paris, 1995.
    DOBREV, Christo et al., Balgarski Voënen Atlas, Voenno Izdatelstvo, Sofia, 1979.
    DORCHY, Henry, Histoire des Belges : des origines à 1991, De Boeck, Bruxelles, 1991.
    DREYSS, Ch., Chronologie universelle, Librairie de L. Hachette et Cie, Paris, 1864.
    DUBY, Georges et al., Atlas historique, Larousse, Paris, 1978.
    ENGEL, Josef et al., Grosser Historischer Weltatlas: 2 - Mittelalter, Bayerischer Schulbuch-Verlag, München, 1979.
    FALKUS, Malcolm & GILLINGHAM, John, Historical Atlas of Britain, Kingfisher, London, 1987.
    FOSTER, Robert Fitzroy, The Oxford History of Ireland, Oxford University Press, Oxford, 1989.
    GAUCAS, Petras, Lietuvos istorijos atlasas, Vaga, Vilnius, 2001.
    GAXOTTE, Pierre, Histoire de l'Allemagne, Flammarion, Paris, 1963.
    GIBBON, Edward, Histoire du déclin et de la chute de l'empire romain, Robert Laffont, Paris, 1983.
    GIEYSZTOR, Aleksander, et al., Histoire de Pologne, Editions scientifiques de Pologne, Varsovie, 1971.
    HALDON, John, The Palgrave Atlas of Byzantine History, Palgrave Macmillan, New York, 2005.
    HELLER, Michel , Histoire de la Russie et de son empire, Flammarion, Paris, 1997.
    HEWSEN, Robert H., Armenia: A Historical Atlas, The University of Chicago Press, Chicago, 2001.
    HIGOUNET, Charles, Les Allemands en Europe centrale et orientale au Moyen Age, Editions Aubier, Paris, 1989.
    HURTADO, Víctor et al., Atlas d'Història de Catalunya, Edicions 62, Barcelona, 1995.
    INALCIK, Halil, The Ottoman Empire : the Classical Age 1300-1600, Weidenfeld and Nicholson, London, 1973.
    JOUKOVSKY, Arkady, Histoire de l’Ukraine, Éditions du Dauphin, Paris, 2005.
    JOVANOVITCH, Borislav, Istorijski Atlas, Geocarta, Beograd, 1999.
    JULIEN, Charles-André, Histoire de l'Afrique du Nord : Des origines à 1830, Payot et Rivages, Paris, 1994.
    KAZHDAN, Alexander et al., The Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium, 3 vol., Oxford University Press, New York & Oxford, 1991.
    KERAUTRET, Michel, Histoire de la Prusse, Seuil, Paris, 2005.
    KRIISKA, Aivar & al., Eesti Ajaloo Atlas, Avita, Tallinn, 2007.
    LYNCH, Michael, Scotland : A New History, PIMLICO, London, 1991.
    MALAMOUT, Elisabeth, Les Iles de l'Empire byzantin, 2 T., Publications de la Sorbonne., Paris, 1988.
    MATTHEW, Donald, Atlas of Medieval Europe, Phaidon, Oxford, 1983.
    MELIS, Roberto et al., Atlante Storico del Mondo, TCI, Milano, 1994.
    MIROT, L., Manuel de géographie historique de la France, Auguste Picard, Paris, 1930.
    MOLNAR, Miklos, Histoire de la Hongrie, Hatier, Paris, 1996.
    MOTTA, G., Atlante Storico, I.G.D.A, Novara, 1979.
    MUTAFIAN & VAN LAUWE, Atlas historique de l'Arménie, Autrement, Paris, 2001.
    NORWICH, John Julius, Histoire de Byzance : 330-1453, Perrin, Paris, 2002.
    OSTROGORSKY, Georgije, Histoire de l'Etat byzantin, Payot & Rivages, Paris, 1996.
    PITCHER, Donald Edgar, An Historical Geography of the Ottoman Empire : from earliest times to the end of the sixteenth century, Brill, E.J., Leiden, 1972.
    POGONOWSKI, Iwo C., Poland, a Historical Atlas, Dorset Press, New York, 1988.
    PUTZGER, Friedrich Wilhelm, Historischer Atlas, Sauerländer & Co, Aarau, 1981.
    REES, William, An Historical Atlas of Wales, University College, Cardiff, 1951.
    REGAN, Kresimir et al., Hrvatski Povijesni Atlas, Leksikografski Zavod, Zagreb, 2003.
    ROVAN, Joseph, Histoire de l'Allemagne : des origines à nos jours, Seuil, Paris, 1998.
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    ZAMBAUR, E. de, Manuel de Généalogie et de Chronologie pour l'Histoire de l'Islam, Biblio Verlag, Osnabrück, 1976.
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    With this incredible tool at hand, I save the maps of the region from the different centuries (for Tsardoms, 1300, 1400, 1500 and 1600), copy them into gimp as layers, and decide the most reasonable average borders to craft the map for the mod. It is important to point out here that, unlike in real life, province borders are do not change in game as the time goes by, which makes this method even more important for regions where they changed frequently.

    Unfortunatelly, the Euratlas user agreement does not allow me to share the maps I used. However, I have drawn the province outlines for Croatia and Bosnia specifying from which year I took each segment of border:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    This is the base from which the game map was done, with minor changes, for example, fitting slightly to geographical features and the Dalmatian coastal provinces made thicker to be wide enough to at least allow the engine to create roads through its territories.

    The map you shared with the borders close to the Neretva is similar to the Croatian borders for 1300, but it gets reduced irreversibly starting from 1400:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    I am confident to say that the Tsardoms campaign map is the most historically accurate you will ever find in Medieval 2 mods.

    Best Regards,

    dcadastro
    Tsardoms mapper
    Last edited by dcadastro; April 15, 2018 at 06:18 PM.
    Tsardoms: Total War campaign mapper

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  13. #2633
    Hrobatos's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress

    The source of this confussion is Hrvoje Vukcic Hrvatinic. He held teritories on border area of Hungary/Croatia and Bosnia. He was initialy vassal of Louis but came later to support Ladisslaus of Naples against Sigismund of Luxemburg and was appointed viceroy of Croatia and Herzog of Split. At the same time howeover he was also vassal to Bosnian ban and a held a title of grand bosnian duke.

    His clever machinations between Bosnian ban and Napoliyan Angevins allowed him to be de-facto independent.

    His teritory is sometimes shown on maps.as part of Bosnia and sometimes as part of Croatia. It was both in a way.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Hrobatos; April 16, 2018 at 04:42 AM.

  14. #2634

    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress

    Yes that iz cuz hrvojes family teritories lower end banate vas initialy a croatian core teritory and together with the coastal area a backbone of the croatian kingdom.Now the owners of lower ends switched from vassalage to the king of hungary and croatia to a vassalage to the bosnian ban/king.The lower ends where part of bosnia from that time but the geograpicaly it vas stil in the core of croatia and hrvoje olayed his game in croatia and bosnia he vas a king maker in bosnia and the vice king in croatia so he vas the main figure in both kingdoms.

  15. #2635
    Wallachian's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress

    Well now this whole mapping thing caused dcdastro to probably loose a whole good hour of modding or even more to explain stuff. While it is good to communicate I am against wasting valuable modding time to explain various decisions taken. In the end I prefer actually having a mod to play with a bit innacurate map rather than a modthat will never get released with a fully accurate map.

  16. #2636

    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress

    the map is great we just like to talk history.
    bosnian-croatian border is not something u cant show precisley on a map of this scale

  17. #2637

    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress

    Quote Originally Posted by dcadastro View Post
    The map you shared with the borders close to the Neretva is similar to the Croatian borders for 1300, but it gets reduced irreversibly starting from 1400
    Well, the map I posted is from a date after the Treaty of Zadar(1358), which is years after the startdate of this mod, but yes, I understand that the entire period has to be taken into account, not just the starting decades.

  18. #2638

    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallachian View Post
    Well now this whole mapping thing caused dcdastro to probably loose a whole good hour of modding or even more to explain stuff. While it is good to communicate I am against wasting valuable modding time to explain various decisions taken. In the end I prefer actually having a mod to play with a bit innacurate map rather than a modthat will never get released with a fully accurate map.
    Indeed it took me more than that

    I agree. Most of our followers share their views and knowledge with good intentions, but I usually avoid replying or giving explanaitions because it is very time consuming and depending on the subject debate will be endless and sometimes aggressive (Bosnian church and Ragusan language, hello there). I thought it was worthwhile answering this time because Mamlaz was polite and respectful and seemed to intend to contribute, and also because the province borders are entirely on me and I have very solid foundations for my decisions. Sharing my method and sources exemplified for the community that none of our decisions are made without good reason for it.

    @mamlaz, you were very reasonable, what I am going to say now is not directed at you, I am just taking to opportunity to point this out.

    Fortunately it was not the case this time, but sometimes in the past people seemed to forget this is not a democracy, but a bunch of volunteer guys who devoted thousands of hours of their free time in their personal lives for the past decade to dedicate for this project just out of sheer passion for it. As such, these same guys will do it as they wish, not as the majority mandates.

    Every contribution is welcome, but for the aforementioned reasons, that is why the team decisions will usually be informed, but not explained or debated.
    Last edited by dcadastro; April 16, 2018 at 03:24 PM.
    Tsardoms: Total War campaign mapper

    "To govern a republic, it is best to imitate the great god of nature, who does everything little by little, almost unobserved."
    - Nicolò Vito di Gozze, Rector of Ragusa, On the State of the Republics

  19. #2639
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    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress

    Quote Originally Posted by dcadastro View Post
    Most of our followers share their views and knowledge with good intentions, but I usually avoid replying or giving explanaitions because it is very time consuming and depending on the subject debate will be endless and sometimes aggressive (Bosnian church and Ragusan language, hello there)
    These topics were always bound to be a hornet's nest, unfortunately. I could go on a long rant about the heavily nationalism-influenced historical narratives which exist (and are also largely present in educational systems) here in the countries of the former Yugoslavia, and how they shape current political life, and as a result sometimes our life here on TWC. But it probably wouldn't do any good.

    Let's just say that this will definitely be the best and most accurate portrayal of this region (and not only this region) and its late medieval history in any TW mod or game, and indeed possibly any game ever.
    I guess people would be right to be critical if it were obvious that the team didn't give a damn about neither the culture nor history of this area, as is the case, many believe, in the Vanilla game. But that is obviously not the case, there is a huge amount of evidence that they care a lot about these things and are doing the best they can to represent history accurately.

    I think most people with very few exceptions do realize this. A lot of balkan people are probably guilty of wanting to endlessly discuss only our country, which I'm sure can be annoying, but it seems at least there hasn't been a real good old yugo-style flamewar here in a while now. So we're improving
    Jokes aside, we should really be excited about all of the factions and features of Tsardoms that are coming, because reducing ourselves to be only interested in the faction that represents our country would mean that we would miss out on so much awesomeness.
    For example, I've found that killing Croatian knights with Serbian spearmen can be perfectly entertaining.
    Last edited by Tommygunz; April 16, 2018 at 05:39 PM.

  20. #2640

    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress

    dude medieval history is not being politicized haha
    i will play all factions except maybe only one italian and one turkic faction


    cant wait for the rellese and i wonder what work they are doing now?

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