Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress

[Lusitanio]

There is still a good amount of work being done behind the scenes. I have been busy but I plan to do the Voivode of Wallachia and Voivode of Moldova ancillaries in a few days.

[IVSTINIANVS I]

Here is our new facebook page. As a member of the Devs I will be updating it from time to time on our mod progress. Please share and subscribe

https://www.facebook.com/Tsardoms-To...0312120454623/

[Wallachian]

Calling all Bulgarian history fans. We are introducing a new title system in Tsardoms. Every time a general conquers a settlement he will receive a title ancillary with certain effects.


For example, in Croatia if a general conquers Knin he will get the title of Knez of Knin, if a general conquers Zadar he will get the title of Knez of Zadar and if he conquers Split he will get Knez of Split. Once a faction controls all these 3 titles the faction leader will get the ancillary Ban of Croatia and Dalmatia.


We are trying to do the same thing for all factions however this requires a LOT of work and research and we have limited resources as it is.


For Bulgaria we are missing titles for the following settlements:

Sredets
Tsepina
Plovdiv
Nikopol
Shumen
Drastar
Varna
Nesebar


It can be the name of the province governor (it can be despot, it can be lord, it can be katepan, zupan, knyaz, voivode and so on, whatever was historical for Bulgaria), it can be some sort of feudal appendage. As an example, the counties of Hungary were governed by Ispans. So we have the ancillaries called Ispan of Pozega, Ispan of Poszony and so on. A simillar thing can be done with the Bulgarian ones too. We already have the Despotate of Dobrudja for the Karvuna settlement and the Lordship of Lovets for the Lovets settlement.


We would need the province titles, a CoA for each province and also a short description for each one of them.

[Kavhan Isbul]

The title "ban" is probably the most appropriate. We know that during the Ottoman siege of Sofia, the defense was led by a certain Ban Yanko. As for crests, I am not sure Bulgarian heraldry was developed to the point where each town had its own coat of arms back then, so anything you put in there would probably not be even remotely historical. A small generic Coat of Arms with lions would probably suffice for all of these. When it comes to the descriptions, are you looking for EBII style descriptions which also give the history of the region/settlement, its geography and natural resources, etc.?

P.S. Not sure how important Shumen was during the period of the mod. Its importance grew under the Ottomans, but during the Second Bulgarian Empire Cherven was a much more important fortress. If Cherven is already in, then fine, but if not, it might be more appropriate as a settlement in North-Eastern Moesia than Shumen.

[Wallachian]

Kavhan man would really live your input here.

This is what i found on wik:

Bulgaria was divided into provinces, whose numbers varied with the territorial evolution of the country. In surviving primary sources, the provinces were named with the Byzantine term hora or the Bulgarian terms zemya (земя), strana (страна), and oblast (област), usually named after its main city.[133][134] The provincial governors were titled "duke" or kefalia — both from Byzantine dux and kephale—and were directly appointed by the emperor. The provinces were subdivided into katepanika (sing. katepanikon, from the Byzantine katepanikion), which were ruled by katepans who were subordinated to the dukes.[135] During the reign of Ivan Asen II (1218–41), the provinces included Belgrade, Braničevo, Boruy, Adrianople, Dimotika, Skopje, Prilep, Devol, and Albania.[135]

So was thinking of calling the governors Katepans. It would be great if you had a map or a list of all the provinces so we can join several katepanates into oblasts ruled by a kephalia.

Ban sounds more like a hungarian imported title rather than a bulgarian or byzantine one (which the SBEs admin was based on).

The descriptions need not be detailed like EBII. Thos is for ancillaries so only 1-2 lines will do. Here is an example of a bosnian province anc

Voivod of Usora - Usora was a small region between Bosnia and Sava river, which belonged to Slavonia. After expansion of Bosnia in 14th century, it was included in Bosnia, but at times was occupied and attached to Hungary under ban of Usora

For the effects of the ancillaries it wpuld help if you told me which provinces were famous for what (farming, mining, education, industry, trade etc).

For heraldry could you perhaps provide modern city or province heraldry that at least looks medieval? Thats what i did for romania, i used modern heraldry from the historical areas.

About Shumen well lots of changes were made in the past. It may not be correct but at the moment we are no longer making map changes due to the large amount if time rrequired to modify province borders. But oncevwe have a finished product we will go back and polish it with the required changes. So will keep it in mind.

[Kavhan Isbul]

I thought ban may be a word of Slavic origin, but I am honestly not sure about this. I am not a historian, I just like playing M2TW. Despot was also a very popular title (ERE origin of the word), which seems to have been adopted by anyone ruling over a small area during the fragmentation of the Balkans in the 14th century.

Sredets - As the name suggests, Sredets is an important fortress in the middle of the Balkan Peninsula, which can be used as a launching point for invasions into Thrace, Macedonia and Moesia. Originally conquered by Kan Krum in the 9th century, it has been incorporated into the Bulgarian state - at least for now.
Tsepina - The vast Rhodope Mountains create a natural border between Bulgaria and the Eastern Roman Empire. The fortifications guarding these mountains often change hands in this disputed region.
Plovdiv - The fertile Thracian Valley is an important region both economically and strategically. The north-east portion of this region is controlled by the large city of Philippopolis, established by Philip II of Macedon many centuries ago. Known as Plovdiv to the Bulgarians, who managed to take it in the early 14th century, it is vital for anyone with plans on marching on the rest of Thrace, and ultimately, Constantinople.
Nikopol - Nikopol is among the strongest Bulgarian fortresses and of utmost importance for anyone who wishes to cross the Danube, either to march North into Wallachia or South into Moesia.
Shumen - As the importance of the old Bulgarian capitals of Pliska and Preslav started to diminish, that of Shumen grew. Now an important fortress, it controls access to the fertile region of Dobrudja to the North-East.
Drastar - Drastar is situated along the Danube in North-Eastern Moesia and over the centuries it has seen assaults by Romans, Bulgarians, Rus Vikings and most recently, the Mongols. As such, it is well fortified and important to anyone who wants to rule on both sides of the great river.
Varna - Varna is a key merchant port between the Danube Delta and Stara Planina. Disputed between the Eastern Roman Empire and Bulgaria, it was conquered by Tsar Kaloyan in 1201. The trade significance of the city is attracting Genoese and Venetian merchants.
Nesebar - Nesebar is an important port and stronghold, the possession of which is necessary for any ruler who aspires to control the Black Sea coastline between Constantinople and Stara Planina. Along with the rest of Thrace it is likely to be disputed between Bulgaria, the Eastern Roman Empire and all other powers with ambitions in the area.

[IVSTINIANVS I]

Kavhan man would really live your input here.

This is what i found on wik:

Bulgaria was divided into provinces, whose numbers varied with the territorial evolution of the country. In surviving primary sources, the provinces were named with the Byzantine term hora or the Bulgarian terms zemya (земя), strana (страна), and oblast (област), usually named after its main city.[133][134] The provincial governors were titled "duke" or kefalia — both from Byzantine dux and kephale—and were directly appointed by the emperor. The provinces were subdivided into katepanika (sing. katepanikon, from the Byzantine katepanikion), which were ruled by katepans who were subordinated to the dukes.[135] During the reign of Ivan Asen II (1218–41), the provinces included Belgrade, Braničevo, Boruy, Adrianople, Dimotika, Skopje, Prilep, Devol, and Albania.[135]

So was thinking of calling the governors Katepans. It would be great if you had a map or a list of all the provinces so we can join several katepanates into oblasts ruled by a kephalia.

Ban sounds more like a hungarian imported title rather than a bulgarian or byzantine one (which the SBEs admin was based on).

The descriptions need not be detailed like EBII. Thos is for ancillaries so only 1-2 lines will do. Here is an example of a bosnian province anc

Voivod of Usora - Usora was a small region between Bosnia and Sava river, which belonged to Slavonia. After expansion of Bosnia in 14th century, it was included in Bosnia, but at times was occupied and attached to Hungary under ban of Usora

For the effects of the ancillaries it wpuld help if you told me which provinces were famous for what (farming, mining, education, industry, trade etc).

For heraldry could you perhaps provide modern city or province heraldry that at least looks medieval? Thats what i did for romania, i used modern heraldry from the historical areas.

About Shumen well lots of changes were made in the past. It may not be correct but at the moment we are no longer making map changes due to the large amount if time rrequired to modify province borders. But oncevwe have a finished product we will go back and polish it with the required changes. So will keep it in mind.

By the way, can I ask when we will have a copy of the game cache with the updated map? Because I would like to post some new screenshots of the newer map for our fans on our facebook page.

[Wallachian]

Thanks man that is great!

No, ban is a hungarian administrative term and it was adapted wherever hungary had control (croatia, hungary, serbia, wallachia, bulgaria etc.). However, it was not a term actually used by the Bulgarian administration.

Is there no way to search the bulgarian internet to see what the province governors were called and what the actual medieval provinces were?


Should we have it like this?


Katepan of Sredets
Katepan of Tsepina
Katepan of Plovdiv
Katepan of Nikopol
Katepan of Shumen
Katepan of Drastar
Katepan of Varna
Katepan of Nesebar


Like which cities where in which provinces? For example, which cities were part of the Tsardom of Vidin?


Could you also please provide coat of arms for each of these cities? It can be anything medieval bulgarian related as long as it looks decent. You can even give me any sort of bulgarian heraldry even the fake ones from those armorials, even modern but that looks kind of medieval. We just need to give an image to the ancillary.

[Hrobatos]

ban is originaly Croatian title but then adopted by Hungarians for border marches and provincea under administration of governor with high degree of autonomy and military and civil control due to need to operate to an extend independent from capital.

The term used in Serbia for feudal lords was despot so perhaps it may be the same case on Bulgaria as well.

[Kavhan Isbul]

I am afraid I just lack enough knowledge on the subject of Bulgarian medieval administrative organisation. The word "katepan" is a word I am not familiar with, and I have not encountered it in any of the historiography works on the Second Empire. I believe it is of ERE origin, and it may have been adopted in Bulgaria, but I simply have not heard it before. I would see if I can do more research on regional titles. As for a map of those divisions, this will be hard - the map of Bulgaria changed a lot based on the constant warfare, and in the 14th century the rapid fragmentation complicates things further. Can't promise you anything, but I will see if I can find the info you are looking for.

[Wallachian]

ban is originaly Croatian title but then adopted by Hungarians for border marches and provincea under administration of governor with high degree of autonomy and military and civil control due to need to operate to an extend independent from capital.

The term used in Serbia for feudal lords was despot so perhaps it may be the same case on Bulgaria as well.

That is correct about Serbia, however that was at larger provincial level. Whereas here we are operating at settlement level. According to my research at the smaller level in Serbia the administrators were called 'kefalija' from the byzantine 'kephale'.

I am afraid I just lack enough knowledge on the subject of Bulgarian medieval administrative organisation. The word "katepan" is a word I am not familiar with, and I have not encountered it in any of the historiography works on the Second Empire. I believe it is of ERE origin, and it may have been adopted in Bulgaria, but I simply have not heard it before. I would see if I can do more research on regional titles. As for a map of those divisions, this will be hard - the map of Bulgaria changed a lot based on the constant warfare, and in the 14th century the rapid fragmentation complicates things further. Can't promise you anything, but I will see if I can find the info you are looking for.

Don't worry I understand that you don't have the medieval knowledge. However, you have access to the internet in Bulgarian language. I have scoured all the English language sources but can not do further than that. I can definitely confirm that the katepan title was in use by the Second Bulgarian empire, actually several byzantine titles were adopted including katepan, dux, comes and despot.

And if there was fragmentation that is perfect. Would really appreciate if you had a look, feel free to post maps and stuff like that.

[NikeBG]

Medieval Bulgaria either didn't have "permanent counties" (i.e. relatively fixed borders) or we just don't know anything about them, as the sources for Bulgarian history are largely foreign ones (mostly Byzantine, also some Western, in this case also some Ottoman etc).

In any case, if you need heraldry, whatever it is, you can look at the Bulgarian heraldry and vexillology's site:
https://heraldika-bg.org/
Particularly their armorial collection:
https://heraldika-bg.org/gallery_armorial.htm
(Or the Wiki, of course)
Needless to say, just like Western-style feudalism, heraldry didn't really have much time to gain traction in medieval Bulgaria, so if you want to include it, you're bound to... play with history a bit (which is inevitable when making a historical game anyway).

As for the titles, I haven't delved in this period for a long time, but Kavhan Isbul is correct - Ban Yanuka/Yanko is quite a popular figure, defending Sofia/Sredets from the Ottomans in the second half of the 14th century (i.e. the mod's starting period). Some historians associate him with "Tsar Yasen", i.e. knyaz Ioan Asen, one of the older sons of Tsar Ioan Alexander, who died fighting the Turks in the mid-14th century. Others associate him with a legendary version of Janosh Hunyadi (known in Bulgarian folklore often as "Yankul voyvoda", just like Pippo Spano turned into "Filip Magyarin" etc). Other than that, "ban" is indeed nearly non-existent in the Second Bulgarian Empire. There are, however, different titles, often based on the Byzantine titulature - for example, the most powerful people after the tsar were the sevastokrator and the despot (and given the rising decentralization and secessionism in the SBE, the carriers of those two titles often became quite autonomous, even outright independent in their realms). So, some possibilities:
- gospodin - basically a direct equivalent of "lord" (including in the parallel divine meaning - "Lord God" in Bulgarian is "Gospod Bog"). In 1395, the Bulgarian tsar Ioan Shishman, having already lost his capital of Tarnovo, was reduced to styling himself as "gospodin tranovski", i.e. "lord of Tarnovo". Of course, like "lord", this isn't a strict hierarchical rank, but you'd be hard-pressed to find strict ones anyway.
- sevast - it used to be a regional governor in the 13th c., but in the 14th it kept devolving, sometimes being pretty much symbolic; one of the many Byzantine titles and ranks adopted by the SBE
- duks/duka - a governor of a smaller region, generally lower ranked than the sevast
- katepan (or sometimes zhupan) - governor of a katepanat/zhupa, which is generally a sub-division of a hora
- ban/voyvoda - voyvoda is the much more common term and it was used for predominantly military commanders and governors and small "feudal" lords (whereas gospodin has a more civil aspect) of sub-divisions of a katepanat/zhupa. Though in some cases, like north of the Danube, it became used for governors of quite large and autonomous estates, of course. The realm also had a "velik voyvoda" (i.e. great voivode, aka protostrator), who was basically a field marshal.
- kefaliya - governor/mayor of a town or fortress
- kastrofilak - commander of a fortress
- knez - mayor or local elder

You can find many more ranks, titles, courtly positions etc (in Bulgarian, but GoogleTranslate should get the gist of it, IMO) here and here. So it depends on you on which level of the sub-divisions (which are generally unknown and/or fluid, i.e. we can't point to specific borders of the different horas, katepanates etc) you'd want to focus. Anything between voyvoda and sevast seems good to me.

[PekoBG]

Excellent information NikeBG! I really can't add anything to it, but may i suggest something? When i looked at the list of provinces, some appeared to me more important, both economically and demographically, and with larger cities as their centers. I am not a historian, but i do dabble in history. So here's what i propose:
For the larger cities and provinces, them being Sredets, Plovdiv, Drastar and Varna, you use the titles Sebast and Despot. For the... How should i put it... More minor ones, Tsepina, Nikopol, Shumen and Nesebar, you can use the more minor titles of Voyvoda, Kefalia, and Duks. Example : Kefaliya of Nesebar.

[Wallachian]

Guys what can I say this is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you so much to all of you. Be sure that all this information will be put to good use and you will be able to enjoy a nice ancillary system for bulgaria and other factions.

[Wallachian]

Calling our Serbian friends, let's try and do the same thing for Serbia:

Here are the settlements in the Serbian Empire:

Kotor
Skadar
Uzice - Vojvoda of Uzice ?
Ras - Kephale of Ras?
Prizren
Novo_Brdo - Kephale of Novo Brdo?
Nis
Skopje
Ohrid
Prilep
Stip
Rudnik - Kephale of Rudnik
Branicevo

Can you please provide the following to help the mod team:

- short description of the settlement/province
- coat of arms to use
- what is the name of the governor such as Kephale, Zupan, Despot or whatever is more correct
- are there any groupings of provinces? like settlements together in a province?

[paleologos]

Very good job so far, guys.
I hope you persevere to completion.

[Mr_Nygren]

Hey guys, another work report here. Today we have reskined Greek settlements, hope you like them

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Greatly courtesy of East of Rome mod, who provided those epic red and white brick textures.

Looking great! I did send the EoR textures- but it would seem that i sent the wrong folder with actual settlement models. I did send the "Greek"-folder which according to Tartaros only had vanilla settlement models in it, and it should have been the "Southern_European" folder instead- with the ERE Roman custom models.

I had however sent the folder with the techtree buildings as they are separate.

But indeed i seem to have sent the wrong settlement models.

[Wallachian]

Oh we didn't realise that. Could you send the Southern European models too?

[_Tartaros_]

they can also be found in EoR´s Danube Limes 0.9


base models are in De Bello Mundi mod too

[Vercingetorix51]

Hi,
how are tests of your mod ?