Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress

[Wallachian]

I fully agree that the focus should be 100% on finishing the mod. The work that you guys have done in the past couple of years has been amazing and I am your biggest fan.

That being said, I do feel that part of Tsardoms' beauty lies in its representation of the various ethnic groups that lived in Italy, the Balkans, the Pontic Steppe, and Anatolia during the period. When I first played the battle beta, I was blown away by the various "ethnic" (Cumans, Albanians, Greeks, Vlachs, etc) peasant units that you guys wonderfully presented in the various rosters of the factions. It is my hope that this path would be continued with the other regions/factions not explored in the battle beta. If I'm playing as the Swiss and I march my army into Albania, I would hope to be able to have some native Albanians that I could recruit there as mercenaries.

I remember back in the day when I played EB 1. Exploring the campaign map was always a real treat because every region of the map had its own unique 'native' units to interact with, even if there were no playable factions there. I totally understand that finishing the mod should be the #1 priority, but I do want to praise you guys for the work that you have done regarding ethnic units.

Well don't worry about that. You will be exploring the campaign map in Tsardoms and find ethnic AOR units everywhere. From albanians, to vlachs, to cumans, to szekely, to cossacks, to tatars, to hussites, to croats, to saxons and so on. There will be a large amount of these types of units.

That being said our priorty is to finish a first version of the mod which will be simply huge. There will be hundreds of new and modified units. We are constantly creating and adding new units too to try and balance rosters which is our main priority at the moment.

Units which are second priorty but would love to have at one point are these alans and I am also interested in finding out more about the Crimean Goths which apparently were still around in the XIV-XVth centuries. Since we are working on adding the Golden Horde (not the name we will use probably as apparently this is an anachronistic term, we may use a name which includes Ulus or maybe Tatar Khanate) we are looking at this area in detail. Have added a couple of Ruthenian units but also considering whether to include a Russian cavalry to represent the vassall princes from Kiev and othe Russian principalities.

[Darios]

Well don't worry about that. You will be exploring the campaign map in Tsardoms and find ethnic AOR units everywhere. From albanians, to vlachs, to cumans, to szekely, to cossacks, to tatars, to hussites, to croats, to saxons and so on. There will be a large amount of these types of units.

That is simply SWEET! Well done

That being said our priorty is to finish a first version of the mod which will be simply huge. There will be hundreds of new and modified units. We are constantly creating and adding new units too to try and balance rosters which is our main priority at the moment.

Remember, feel free to shoot me a PM if yall ever need help with anything.

Units which are second priorty but would love to have at one point are these alans and I am also interested in finding out more about the Crimean Goths which apparently were still around in the XIV-XVth centuries. Since we are working on adding the Golden Horde (not the name we will use probably as apparently this is an anachronistic term, we may use a name which includes Ulus or maybe Tatar Khanate) we are looking at this area in detail.

Crimea is a fascinating treasure trove regarding the various civilizations that lived there from antiquity through the Middle Ages. It has always been my favorite region to rule/colonize in Total War games as a result. I recently read a Russian study regarding the Greek dialect (Romeika) that is still spoken today in a few villages near the Sea of Azov and it is a psychedelic melange of Greek, Tatar, and Russian. There's also a Russian book that I would like to get my hands on regarding the Crimean Goths and the Principality of Theodoro in the near future. From what I understand, the Goths were still around during Tsardoms' timeframe, but they had become largely Romanized (Greek speaking) since Justinian's reign. However, I have read that they continued to speak Gothic as a vernacular for a long time afterwards.

However, as cool as it would be, I do not know enough to say whether or not the Crimean Goths were discernible enough (also concerning clothing/weapons/fighting style) to say they should have their own separate unit in game (recruitable only in Mangup, of course). They seem to have been well assimilated into the local Roman and Tatar populations. I invite anyone knowledgeable about this topic to join in the discussion. There is an inscription that was found at Mangup concerning the sack of Theodoro by the Tatars:

“ten teams of bullock and drover were killed and … heard, against the Barbarians raised young and old and followed after them to(the name of the area) protected by God Theodoro fortress and pursued and fought to Zazale … parts … 68th year”

I suppose that might be a reference to the Gothic population there.

...but also considering whether to include a Russian cavalry to represent the vassall princes from Kiev and othe Russian principalities.

The Ruthenian AoR units sound great, but I would recommend against the Russian cavalry unit as an AoR unit, only as a factional vassal unit for the Golden Horde. The Rus states definitely had awesome cavalry by this time period, especially due to Mongol influence. It would be a few more centuries before the Russians began to settle so far south as a people.

Update: I've found a reference to the clothing of Crimean Goths. It is from page 172 of "The Goths in the Crimea" by Alexander Alexandrovich Vasiliev.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

In the course of time the people dwelling in the inland parts [of the Peninsula and neighboring countries], I mean the Alans, Zikhi, Goths, Russians, and other different neighboring peoples, mixed with them (the Noghai-Tatars); they adopted their customs, assumed their tongue and clothes...

It also backs up with Mr. LinusLinothorax said about the Alani.

[LinusLinothorax]

We have included Albanians and Cumans and represented them with few units. We have to stop at some point from going deepee and deeper in the ethnic groups list because we have a unit limit. If we include Jasz people then we will also have to include every single little group to keep consistency. I think that opening a pandora box of unrepresented tribes, ethnies, baronies and duches etc is what we are afraid most.

Even if there is the danger that I sound dogmatic now, but I think you are underestimating the relevance of the Jasz. They deserve to be an own unit just much as the already existing Cumans, Szekely and Saxons did. The only reason they were allowed to settle in Hungary was the performance of military duties, a duty which they obeyed to the thousands. So the problem with the Jasz is not so much if they deserve to be an own unit from a historical perspective, but how they looked like in the 14th and 15th century and how they fought.

Second point of yours: ok, will do that.
Cheers

Since you are appareantly from Germany I could recommend this book:
https://www.amazon.de/Petschenegen-K.../dp/3876800307
Kouznetsov did not list this book in his sources, so perhaps it offers an entire new insight into this matter. Also good is that it focuses on the Medieval era only.
Index: http://d-nb.info/943469473/04

[Darios]

Okey dokey, been doing a lot of reading over the past few days concerning the Crimean Goths and I have learned some interesting stuff. To begin with, I am unconvinced that there were Germanic speaking Goths living in Crimea during the Tsardoms timeframe. There was most certainly a group of Ostrogoths that remained behind in Crimea when Theodoric took the bulk of his people into Italy but they seemed to have become quickly Hellenized (by Justinian's reign) and subsequently somewhat Tatarized during the late Middle Ages. There are plenty of references to "Gothia" throughout the Middle Ages from local Genoese, Tatar, and Roman sources but the references appear to point more to a geopolitical entity rather than an ethnic one. (similar example: the referencing of the Greek-speaking Byzantine empire as "Rhomania" even though the empire had ceased speaking Latin and lost control of Rome/Italy centuries prior). The name itself seems to have survived due to it being the title of the local Orthodox Metropolitanate, which had been established centuries prior.

There are indeed scattered references of Western Europeans visiting the region and writing about local Germanic speakers, but it must be taken with skepticism. There seem to have been fanciful legends in medieval Western Europe regarding the survival of a Gothic state somewhere in the East, in the same light one would approach legends of Prester John. As a result, Western travelers to the Tatar Court or to Constantinople often made references to rumors of Germanic speakers living in nearby "Gothia" even if they did not visit Crimea personally. For example, Ogier Ghiselin de Busbecq did compile a small Crimean Gothic dictionary but he had never visited Crimea himself. His sources were two people in 16th century Constantinople who were native Greek speakers but had knowledge of a Germanic language. Vasiliev argued that his sources may have very likely been Jews. I am left with the impression that the Western travelers often grasped at the proverbial straws in order to 'highlight' any rumors of the legendary Goths in order to stoke the curiosity of their audiences.

As a result, it would seem to me that yes there was a medieval state named Gothia and its inhabitants could be named as "Goths" (they may have also very well been descendants of the original Ostrogoths) but there are no direct Roman, Genoese, or Tatar sources for the survival of a Germanic speaking ethnic group in late medieval Crimea. It is certain, however, that the inhabitants were Greek/Tatar speaking and had been culturally assimilated into both groups. With that in mind, I see little to no reason to include a Crimean Gothic ethnic unit in Tsardoms.

[Svir@c]

Since you are appareantly from Germany I could recommend this book:
https://www.amazon.de/Petschenegen-K.../dp/3876800307
Kouznetsov did not list this book in his sources, so perhaps it offers an entire new insight into this matter. Also good is that it focuses on the Medieval era only.
Index: http://d-nb.info/943469473/04

Thanks! But I just live here, and my knowledge of german is ... let's say I'm in learning modus. From the same author I have it, already, in hungarian language (pdf files). Will search for Kouznetsov thou (in english, hahaha...)!?

[LinusLinothorax]

Okey dokey, been doing a lot of reading over the past few days concerning the Crimean Goths and I have learned some interesting stuff. To begin with, I am unconvinced that there were Germanic speaking Goths living in Crimea during the Tsardoms timeframe. There was most certainly a group of Ostrogoths that remained behind in Crimea when Theodoric took the bulk of his people into Italy but they seemed to have become quickly Hellenized (by Justinian's reign) and subsequently somewhat Tatarized during the late Middle Ages. There are plenty of references to "Gothia" throughout the Middle Ages from local Genoese, Tatar, and Roman sources but the references appear to point more to a geopolitical entity rather than an ethnic one. (similar example: the referencing of the Greek-speaking Byzantine empire as "Rhomania" even though the empire had ceased speaking Latin and lost control of Rome/Italy centuries prior). The name itself seems to have survived due to it being the title of the local Orthodox Metropolitanate, which had been established centuries prior.

There are indeed scattered references of Western Europeans visiting the region and writing about local Germanic speakers, but it must be taken with skepticism. There seem to have been fanciful legends in medieval Western Europe regarding the survival of a Gothic state somewhere in the East, in the same light one would approach legends of Prester John. As a result, Western travelers to the Tatar Court or to Constantinople often made references to rumors of Germanic speakers living in nearby "Gothia" even if they did not visit Crimea personally. For example, Ogier Ghiselin de Busbecq did compile a small Crimean Gothic dictionary but he had never visited Crimea himself. His sources were two people in 16th century Constantinople who were native Greek speakers but had knowledge of a Germanic language. Vasiliev argued that his sources may have very likely been Jews. I am left with the impression that the Western travelers often grasped at the proverbial straws in order to 'highlight' any rumors of the legendary Goths in order to stoke the curiosity of their audiences.

As a result, it would seem to me that yes there was a medieval state named Gothia and its inhabitants could be named as "Goths" (they may have also very well been descendants of the original Ostrogoths) but there are no direct Roman, Genoese, or Tatar sources for the survival of a Germanic speaking ethnic group in late medieval Crimea. It is certain, however, that the inhabitants were Greek/Tatar speaking and had been culturally assimilated into both groups. With that in mind, I see little to no reason to include a Crimean Gothic ethnic unit in Tsardoms.

The chance that the Goths still spoke a Germanic langauge in the 14th century can be estimated to be around 0,000001%. The other Germanics who settled within the borders of the Roman empire were linguistically assimilated within a few decades after all. What is possible however is that they spoke an own dialect.

Thanks! But I just live here, and my knowledge of german is ... let's say I'm in learning modus. From the same author I have it, already, in hungarian language (pdf files).

And? What does it say about the Iasses? I saw that it has an entire, albeit short, chapter about Iassic fashion. And what about warfare?

Will search for Kouznetsov thou (in english, hahaha...)!?

Afaik he only publishes stuff in Russian, that Frenchie book was the only exception. He is more focused on the Caucasian Alans anyway tho, so you will probably have to find other Hungarian authors who wrote about the Iasses.

Edit:

Since we are working on adding the Golden Horde (not the name we will use probably as apparently this is an anachronistic term, we may use a name which includes Ulus or maybe Tatar Khanate)

"Golden Horde" is btw a horrible translation of "Altan Ordun". Ordun does not mean "horde", but "tent". Why not go with "Khanate of the golden Tent"?

[Miszel]

Finally found the way to open and edit old strat models.
Say hello to our revisited Constantinople start model.
Credits for late il_duce who made first version, i reused some of his models.
Cute trees are from Rusichi but retextured.

[BarnicleBill1]

It's beautiful!

[kanteljic]

Another high quality masterpiece by Miszel! I will work on putting it correctly in the strat map right away, togheter with Galata model. Galata is a separate settlement now, dear Tsardoms followers

[Dusan Silni]

Will it be like before citadel+metropolis(Outer city) or just one settlement?

[kanteljic]

Constantinople is now one settlement only, with Galata separate.

[thekingsmen]

can we see a pic of it on the map?

[kanteljic]

I am trying to put it on right, but it is not easy because of the pieces that need to fit togheter

[_Tartaros_]

Looks very detailed and not to crowded.
how big is the stratmapmodel on the map?
AP has a really big version

Finally found the way to open and edit old strat models.
Say hello to our revisited Constantinople start model.
Credits for late il_duce who made first version, i reused some of his models.
Cute trees are from Rusichi but retextured.

[Miszel]

It's slightly bigger than that of AP, AP model would finish on these ruins of the Constantine Wall
Dcadastro will surely show some campaign map pictures in near future.

Meanwhile: generic tatar cities. Base city models were made by Rusichi team.

[kanteljic]

Some final adjustments are still necessary. I will try to wrap it up and post the preview tomorrow. I've done enough modding today, time to rest

[Darios]

Well done on the strat map models. Constantinople is as beautiful as I imagined it to be, but the Tatar models really catch my eye. I see some elements that remind me of Yangi-Shehr/Old Orhei. You Tsardoms guys are my heroes. : )

[Julio85]

Woooow Congratulations!

I love it, similar to ours (Basileia Total War). Can you show the model with the Galata too?

[Svir@c]

Awesome ... Beautiful ... Extraordinary ... Splendid ... I will stop it now ...
Well done guys! Keep up the good work! Thank you team for the "dream come true", slowly but respectably ...

[Miszel]

Coming soon...