Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress

[Wallachian]

I know many of you have have hatred against Turks from their home

This is a silly and childish argument. If this would be the case the mod team should have made the Turks wear pink skirts and ride little ponies in battle. To me it seems that the more a country or even a person is more insecure the more they are nationalistic. That is why i respect Anglo-Saxon historians so much because they have moved beyond this sort of nationalistic stuff a long time ago and are perfectly capable of writing amazing histories of their enemies. One of the greatest books on the life of Napoleon is written by an English historian.

In actual fact, we have Turkish members within the mod team and have worked intensely to make the Ottomans as powerful as possible and a major challenge. Actually one of the complaints of our team members is that the Ottomans are not strong enough which is why we pretty much doubled the unit size of most Ottoman units and are still working on scripts to assist the AI Ottomans to take over the Balkans quicker.

However, we want the mod to be also very historically accurate. In the previous versions the Ottoman armies were pretty much completely made up of janissaries which was very unrealistic. Numerous historical sources (including Ottoman sources) clearly show that the janissaries formed only a small part of an Ottoman army. This was the case in both XV and XVI centuries. Hence why we decreased the janissary availability as we do not want to see again armies full of only janissaries. Same as we don't want to see armies full of western knights.

[VINC.XXIII]

French knights had actual training and could use complex tactical movements similarly to what we have with "Cantabrian Circle" in MTW2, albeit there they used their longswords and drawn circles around enemy polearmer groups. Essentially described in this battle:

Which took place after crushing defeat of Courtrai 1302 where Robert II of Artois charged the fortified flemish militia(also the son of idiot Robert Ist of Artois who charged the whole egyptian army in Mansourah with ~300 knights among which templars, who disagreed with him, also against St-Louis's orders, who, against his own will, still had to follow his stupid cousin and charge himself, which ended in his capture by Mamluks).

But back on Mons-en-Pevele 1304, you have the example that whether cavalry wins or loses depends essentially on tactical configuration, an arm isn't intrinsically great or bad per se, it depends how it is used. At Mons-en-Pévèle:
1-tactical config was much better
2-Philippe the Fair was a frightning king, most barons present knew they had to follow orders or later be punished in a way or another as such there was no room for clownish behavior


Peoples often focus on defeat of heavy cavalry, but for each defeat you also have a crushing victory. Even Graham Turner(an anglo) recognizes it and beatifully pictured it.

Knight charges like an idiot+ evil muddy terrain, bad tactical config. Agincourt 1415


A few years later, at Patay, La Hire, Xaintrailles and de Richemont entirely pulverized the elite of english archery by surprising them before they had fully fortified their positions(attacks by the flanks).
Note: Johan of Ark barely fought in this battle, they put her in the rear guard, they didn't wanted her to take any risk.

[Anubis88]

Y
So saying that heavy cavalry still rulled battlefield in 15th century is not correct. Yes it was still important and could be used, but not as most important part of army.

We will have to agree to disagree then. Someone should have told the Spanish that Heavy cavalry wasn't the most important part of the army anymore. They wouldn't even need to bother with developing the Tercio since the heavy cavalry posed no real threat Also imagine the money that Kings could've saved by not hiring the Swiss mercenaries!

I know many of you have have hatred against Turks from their home,

And this is such a sad and terrible take. There has been so much work done for the Ottomans. There is no mod out there in any TW game that comes close to it. From the starting characters, army composition, building chains, events etc...

It actually saddens me reading about some things lately. Not only on forums but even in books. People try to either demonize or aggrandize history as they see fit to further their own political agenda or self worth. It's especially evident in nations where the current standard of living is poor, and instead of blaming it on their leadership they are trying to make sense of it by dreaming of the "good old times" and focus on the bad guys that made them what they are today. It really is sad. It is bordering hysteria in some parts of the world. Not saying that about you specifically (hopefully), just in general. People read what they want to read and never move an inch from what they read and make it their core belief. The study of history is in sad place right now.

[PavleSubich]

How can u argue about facts,about this when it is al comonly known.

Janissarie mens new army. ARMYYYYYYYY!!!
Knight is not even an unit it is an individual trained by his father from early age on.

So Sanel and the other pro turk guy! What people here are trying to say is that janisaries were trained masivley and in ottoman institutions.Institutional raising and training of armies has only one point wich is UNIFORMITY!
So janissaries where the perfect army in terms of good logistics(best in its time) unifoormed equipment,well trained formations,all walk like one,everyone knows what to do,folowing orders till death.

I dont se any reason for them to be better fighters that any top unit from that time
I think janssaries today sufer the spartan syndrome.
Spartan units are like supermen in every game.In fact they won the same amount of battles as they lost.They werent any better then otheg greek top tier units just that they lived hapily in minimal conditions and follwed orders til death.

Janisarie are like KGB raised children,blind loyality.Even theres no such thing even they revolted sometimes.
Knights were all about competition and chivlary culture.They were raised to comepete in tournaments and similar.
They are like sportist,may the best individual win.OFC knights were killing machines and i doubth that anyone in 1 vs 1 had better chances than i knight.

About that 15. century knights were absolete thing.
Well in the 16. century there vas the siege of wiena where the last heawy cav charged jannissaries frontaly and they won

About nicopolis.
Nicopolis battle shows that knights had no respect for eastern warfare as they didnt even line up before charging the ottomans.The French nobility at nicopolis charged and didnt even wait for the rest of the crusaders LOL.
There vas literaly no fear from the turks.And they obliterated the firs ottoman line.Again they did not form lines and this time they weren even on horses,they charged the second line and won.They charged the third line and the jannissaries were about to breake when the serbs backstabed the crusaders.

Fact is that when armies clash and are evenly matched.Few knights picking sides determine the outcome.

[Slaytaninc]

I think there's nothing wrong in assuming Janissaries were more disciplined, as they were low-born men who owed their status to the Ottoman state. They had to be, as the 15th and early 16th century European armies were still oriented around the striking power of heavily armored lancers, still of largely noble descent. Any infantry force expected to stand up to such units had to be incredibly well-disciplined. By the beginning of this mod's timeframe only the Swiss infantry approached this and they were still halberd armed militiamen.

[PavleSubich]

The problem is that people in popular culture mix good soldiers with terminator killing machines.
A good army is al about being reliable when u send them somewhere and doing all the orders they get.
An army is all about all being like one and not all being super sayan samurai ninjas like in those erdogan made jannissary movies.
lol i just saw one about kosovo battle where the turks are presented as tall shiny armoured guys,white skined while hungarians have mongolic faces and hats on.Then another about krbava LOL where they presented croats and hungarians as stone aged fighters with wolf skins,chicken feather heat wariors with axes XD

[VINC.XXIII]

Nicopolis battle shows that knights had no respect for eastern warfare as they didnt even line up before charging the ottomans.The French nobility at nicopolis charged and didnt even wait for the rest of the crusaders LOL.

The duke of Burgundy, albeit of high birth and royal blood, was a simple man, he saw enemies, he charged.

[saneel]

We will have to agree to disagree then. Someone should have told the Spanish that Heavy cavalry wasn't the most important part of the army anymore. They wouldn't even need to bother with developing the Tercio since the heavy cavalry posed no real threat Also imagine the money that Kings could've saved by not hiring the Swiss mercenaries!

Tercio is a formation of musketeers and pikemen, and it was used to defend both musketeers and pikemen.

[PavleSubich]

Im a big medieval fan for like decade but i dont actualy get if armies used halbedier units(or similar,polearms...) and shield/spear units simultaniousley or had the halbedier momentaly replaced all sheld/spear units?

If they did use both unit thyp what formation where they in?
Where were the spears and where were the halbediers?

[Nebaki]

I dont think that Jannissaries were better trained. Knights were quite well trained from young age. Janissaries were quite good but not better than either knights or sipahis.

1. Jannissaries aswell trained from young age.
2. They were Handpicked from their Childhood to be became through the Education which were provided from the Sultanate - later Empire to be the best.
3. Most Elite Units of the Infantry, Cavalry or even the Artillery were from the Janissary Corps.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Far beyond their European Counterparts during that Timeline in my Opinion.

[Slaytaninc]

Off topic, please delete.

[PavleSubich]

again ur mixing thing us
army is one thing knight is another

Knights used swords noone of could pick up.
They were conditioned from childhood to wear swords maximaly heavy for them.
And they were trained in swordfighting.Killingmachines as i said.

[NapoleonMaster]

To be honest, the idea that kingdoms relying on cavalry never developed tactics and strategies in response to infantry and that they just became obsolete is silly.

The combined arms approach of French knights and Swiss pikemen made the French army one of the most feared and powerful forces in the Italian wars.

Heavily armored lancers dissapeared in western Europe because they were too expensive to maintain, to replace and gunpowder weapons were developing fast and Cuirassiers took their place as shock cavalry.

It's also vital to mention that lancers enjoyed a lot more success in the Balkans and in Eastern Europe because the terrain was flatter than in western Europe. This is why even Napoleon used a lot of lancers from Eastern Europe (specially from Poland).

Regarding Poland, they were the one of the most successful armies in breaking and routing the most modern armies of their time by using cavalry charges. (even routing the Ottomans at the massive battle of Kahlenberg).

Regarding the Ottomans. A lot of their battle tactics were copied from the Hussites and were developed from there. This relied on the combined arms of cavalry, artillery and infantry with a heavy use of fortifications and wagons.

The Ottomans also fielded a healthy number of western style knights themselves (from their Slavic subjects) and these were used to very good effect many battles both in Europe and even in the Middle East.

Many only mention the Jannissaries as the pilar of the Ottoman army but in reality, cavalry was more vital to Ottoman strategy in the Balkans since it was the main tool of the Ottomans to weaken the enemy by sending raids and assaults on enemy territory and they were vital to the defense of territory from counter raids or invasions. They were also vital as scouts and messengers to keep the Ottomans informed on enemy movements and such.

[Brezkimra]

Dear Tsardoms team! I'm still collecting historical Magyar musics for different era Hungarian faction campaigns . Are you interested about the musics what I choose for Tsardoms era?

[Wallachian]

Thank you for the offer. I actually collected a whole lot of hungarian medieval music too. But the problem is that our sound person has been inactive/unresponsive for quite some time. And I remember reading that there is a limit as to how many sets of custom music types can be used. They might not be faction specific but rather culture specific. So its a bit of blurry at the moment.

[Brezkimra]

Thank you for the offer. I actually collected a whole lot of hungarian medieval music too. But the problem is that our sound person has been inactive/unresponsive for quite some time. And I remember reading that there is a limit as to how many sets of custom music types can be used. They might not be faction specific but rather culture specific. So its a bit of blurry at the moment.

I have an idea: Maybe the faction specific musics can be solved with different choosable installation music packs. Maybe I try make one, but I have no modding experience.

[Wallachian]

Yeah thay could definitely work. But again, we would need our sound guy to come back.

[Morrowgan]

The guys over at Dominion of the Sword managed to implement faction specific music. Maybe you could check out their forums. I think there was a guide linked there somewhere but I cannot remember where exactly.

[Vidovit]

Have the hotseat passwords been fixed? I think i tried with the new version and again turns start without a password screen.

[Wallachian]

We haven't touched hotseat as we don't know anything about it. If there is a password or anything like that ots from the vanilla game.

But i am pretty sure people are already doing hotseats.