Is France a good role model for other countries?

[Treize]

They seem to have a very independent foreign policy. They didn't care about the USA and the USSR and maintained a wonderfull overseas 'empire', they have a very independent military industry and they don't see their military as a nice source of cash (and they have a good nuclear force as well). They also have a sort of neo-colonist approach to Africa instead of throwing cash in the black hole and letting the Chinese run off with the resources. And last but not least they dare to do something about illegal immigrants in a way that is not pampering. And the people are very proud of their country and such.

A role model?

[RO Citizen]

Yep. Let's all turn into frogs. They're better than US&PRC, anyway

[Darsh]

Rejoinez "L'Empire"!

Our Walloons brothers will join us soon!

[Manco]

With Walloon brothers you mean those guys who've never ever been part of France proper, except when you tried to conquer it?

[Babur]

With Walloon brothers you mean those guys who've never ever been part of France proper, except when you tried to conquer it?

What about the Bruxellois then?

[Darsh]

What about the Bruxellois then?

It should have 2 referendums, 1 for the reunion of the Walloon provinces and 1 for the rattachment of the Bruxelles city to France otherwise it could be an independente state.

[Babur]

It should have 2 referendums, 1 for the reunion of the Walloon provinces and 1 for the rattachment of the Bruxelles city to France otherwise it could be an independente state.

I guess you just want JCVD for your armed forces (he's Bruxellois)

and Flanders should go to the Netherlands?

[Darsh]

I guess you just want JCVD for your armed forces (he's Bruxellois)

and Flanders should go to the Netherlands?

Why not if is the Flanders's wish.

[Manco]

It should have 2 referendums, 1 for the reunion of the Walloon provinces and 1 for the rattachment of the Bruxelles city to France otherwise it could be an independente state.

Never going to happen. Wallonia ever becoming French is unlikely, Brussels becoming French is simply impossible.
If Belgium ever splits, I can see Brussels becoming a sort of EU administered city state. It can't join France because it's surrounded by Flanders, half its workforce is Flemish, its airport is in Flanders, most of the supporting industry is in Flanders,... Merely looking at the language of the inhabitants is too simple, especially considering that French isn't the mother tongue of most modern Bruxellois either.

and Flanders should go to the Netherlands?

Over my dead body.

edit: just to inform: I'm against a split!

[Koelkastmagneet]

Foreign policy, maybe, a bit too brutal for my tastes though. People and culture, a definite no.

and Flanders should go to the Netherlands?

Never

[The Noble Lord]

It is true that French example should be followed in some aspects, for example the noble and courageous resistance to Iraq invasion that was led by France and Jacques Chirac.

[cottontail]

It is true that French example should be followed in some aspects, for example the noble and courageous resistance to Iraq invasion that was led by France and Jacques Chirac.

While I do agree that France ( and America for that matter) should have stayed out of Iraq, I hardly think their resistance to the invasion was " bold or courageous". Its not as if America was going to nuke France if they didnt join in. France stayed out of it for their self-interest ( which I have no problem with), but it wasnt particularly brave or noble in anyway.

edit: oh, and I prefer Costa Rica for my vacations...

[The Noble Lord]

While I do agree that France ( and America for that matter) should have stayed out of Iraq, I hardly think their resistance to the invasion was " bold or courageous". Its not as if America was going to nuke France if they didnt join in. France stayed out of it for their self-interest ( which I have no problem with), but it wasnt particularly brave or noble in anyway.

edit: oh, and I prefer Costa Rica for my vacations...

Well, it was noble and courageous in many ways. If you remember the hysteria and euphoria in the US during the build-up to the war in 2002 and beginning of 2003 and how they run editorials and front-cover pages of New York Post on how France betrayed America who saved it twice already and how this was the betrayal of the Century. And how campaigns were made to boycott French vine and how French fries was renamed to be freedom fries. All those things put together plus the massive anti-French campaign on FOX News Channel and other Murdock subsidiaries, it is fair to say that French stance was courageous and brave and it showed to the rest of the world how it is important to stand up for justice and liberty against bullying and hypocrisy!!

[athanaric]

Is France

No.

... a good role model for other countries?

In some ways, yes. OTOH there are many issues, like megalomania, which constantly drives French politicians to behave in a dickish way, being fond of protectionism as well as political opposition to America mainly for opposition's sake. Oh and the tendency to try to be the bigger partner in joint ventures with Germany. Which is a bit like Japan assuming its population were bigger than China's.

[razor-]

I admire their relationship to former colonies, and I think it is healthy that there is a western power that does not always follow USA. That being said they seem sort of jingoistic sometimes. Like America actually, probably because both countries are the result of Liberal revolutions and therefore think of everyone else as sort of unenlightened.

[Tiberios]

I kind of admire their independent policies sometimes, but other than that I don't think France is a rolemodel for anything.

[Armenum]

Yes, I highly respect their rather independent foreign policy even though they're a part of NATO. They made a smart decision, for example, not to join the 'herd' in invading Iraq; I highly respect them for that move.

[Vizsla]

It’s a bit like union bosses.
I admire the skills and I wish I had them arguing in my corner, unfortunately they’re not on my side.
I admire the French for not taking any shite and doing whatever is in their interests without any pretences. I dislike them because it is usually not in my interests. Although in fairness I should be despising my own politicians for not standing up for my interests properly. I do find French attitudes on certain issues problematically racist at times.

[removeduser_487563287433]

France is a foil to the UK when it comes to post-war policy. Where France chose Europe, the UK chose Commonwealth and America. Where the UK chose to wind down its colonial interests, France engaged in brutal counter-insurgency wars. Where the UK was pursued free trade and crushed trade unionism, France engages in protectionism, planned economic policy and is, as we speak, proportionally on strike.

The last fifty years has exposed the failings in both policies. France and the UK parted ways at Suez. If you don't know, this was when the nationalist Egyptian President Nasser nationalised and took over the Suez canal - a hugely important water way where a vast proportion of European oil imports made their way through. In response France, the UK and Israel formed a conspiracy to launch an undeniably illegal invasion. The unconsulted Eisenhower administration acted furiously, and economically and diplomatically (read: humiliated) forced Britain out. France was far less dependent on America and was determined to go on.

So that set the scene. British Prime Ministers from this point on were ruled by a consideration of American policy. France moved straight in the other direction, kicked America out of its French bases, and set up the EU (keeping the UK out because of its Atlantic sympathies).

So if you like independent foreign policy, then France is the way to go. But this also meant huge American hostility to France's horrific colonial wars, and may well have lost France its Empire bloodily, whereas the UK was able to mostly bloodlessly and successfully set up a functioning network of friendly independent Commonwealth states.

So... independent policy at the cost of support from the world's superpower. Of course, that did work both ways. American pressure for Britain to enter Vietnam was huge, as was pressure to keep a gigantic British standing army in West Germany at a time when Britain was desperately poor and fighting its own long-term war in Malaya.

This also didn't make France wholly independent. In the creation of what would become the EU France was boss dog, but has certainly been superseded by the reunified Germany. It's initial economic boons such as the agricultural policy have been undermined by the ascension of members such as the UK who are much more hawkish on free trade and the problems that enlargement has brought to the EU from Greece and the PIGS.

It's a complicated business.

[athanaric]

France moved straight in the other direction, kicked America out of its French bases, and set up the EU (keeping the UK out because of its Atlantic sympathies).

They also kept the UK out because de Gaulle had a pretty clear idea about what Britain's objective within the EU would be: making money while keeping the Union's power at minimum. It's reasonable to keep somebody out of a project if you know that they don't give a damn about the core ideas of said project.

So if you like independent foreign policy, then France is the way to go. But this also meant huge American hostility to France's horrific colonial wars, and may well have lost France its Empire bloodily, whereas the UK was able to mostly bloodlessly and successfully set up a functioning network of friendly independent Commonwealth states.

Ehem. IIRC, there also was some issue with Iran. Meaning that Britain hadn't totally given up dickish interventionist policies post WWII. Even though France was more active in that field.