Do CA view us as illegal.

[Dubh the dark]

TWC is an established community that does great work regards mods. My inkling is that as DLC becomes ever more important in the revenue of game developers, sites such as this and people such as us, will become increasingly to be seen as a nuisance. I think as the years push on, that modding will become to be viewed as a criminal act for some developers to combat in the same way that piracy is today. I may be wrong and I hope that I am but money speaks; the only truth in history.

[EmberFlame]

I predict a flame war. There was no reason to link modding and internet piracy, its a completely separate issue. Just saying.

Um...well, first of all, developers know that the mod community is pretty damn important. I know that many of Warcrafts old modders ended up being hired by blizzard or other company's, and a popular modding community is a major draw to many players. There is no reason to restrict modding except to promote the multi-player experience in regards to tourneys, and thats not really a problem for total war. Most mods deal with single-player only. Its only really an issue for Warcraft and other games that are legitimatly challenged by their mods (Dota), but all the same...

[Dubh the dark]

True, that a lot of today's developers started on mods, but it's a very different financial situation today. Games have overtaken the box-office in terms of pure profit and once something becomes so profitable the desire to curtail anything that is free becomes intense. Mods are free, you buy the original software and can download add-ons, but that I think is becoming to be seen as problematic. Once the developer decides on future DLC, why suffer free competition on your own product?

[Achilla]

Modding policy is pretty much independent from finances. Most of the time it's matter of: 'Do I want to support modders openly to promote my game?'. DLC argument is a strawman, DLC in majority is bought by people unconcerned with mods - for many reasons: 1) a belief that paid DLC package is of high quality, compared to 'amateur' modification (popular myth) 2) a belief that a community mod will damage game installation or hard disk drive (popular myth again ... modders go to extensive lengths to ensure that installation/uninstallation process is as easy as possible ... why? Mod users are few, and the more of them use your mod, the better feedback you get concerning your modification ... simple analysis of modding brings you to an enlightenment, that modder has to go through a lot of pain to make his mod popular, including highest-quality content, no stability problems and easy installation ... in practice mod needs to be competitive in all these areas with an original game, created by a professional studio!).

Look up Civilisation V, it's going to be on Steam, it's going to have DLC ... and yet it has active modding support from the developers. In fact, developers want to ensure that casual player will have an easy time browsing and installing mods, and will know what they are!

[kerowhacko]

I'm going to pop in here and say a couple of things because I feel this could lead to a potentially interesting conversation.

I think the question about modding communities and the growing popularity of offering DLCs is a valid one. I certainly don't consider it an "end of the world" fear but I do think it warrants at least some paying attention to.

Empire feels clunkier to try and mod than Med 2 did. Granted, that might not fully be the case anymore as I haven't bothered to follow through anything but I will add this: I like to mod and tinker with mods using a lack of 3rd party software. What I personally mean by 3rd person is not thing such as Photoshop, but things that an individual in a community like this made in order to make such a modding feat possible. I shouldn't have to download several pieces of side software I'd prefer not to care about in order to mess around with and enjoy my user experience with the game and perhaps with modding. In fact, I'd personally like to not rely on you people at all for any such thing. I mean no disrespect in saying that but I enjoy quietly tinkering with Med2, for example, by myself in a dark room and not having to talk to anyone

But, if what you say that modders aren't interested in DLCs and vice-versa than I think that can create a problem. If a modder has no interest in DLCs that can create a thorn in a company's side that cuts into potential revenue. If a person who enjoys DLCs and has no care for mods anyways, then whats the point in allowing modding anyway with such a perfect consumer at hand?

Think about Steam and what it's done (for better or worse). It has created a great platform for them to patch/actually complete a game 1.5 years after it's release, but also a great DLC launching application and it seems that Steam also makes it a little more annoying getting mods to work properly. This is more than likely the future of TW games for us. As long as the titles stay solid enough, I personally am ok with it.

Funny thing is that Steam and its DLCs have yet to conquer piracy. Now, I'm not going to draw such a link to pirates and modders, but I will say that it seems companies seem to like to point fingers as to why projected profits are lower than expected. Now, let's say piracy does indeed get "fixed". What happens then? No company is ever truly happy "settling" on an income amount. Where could they then point a finger at? There are no pirates, every owns a copy of the game and there are still modders and people who buy DLCs. What would happen in that scenario (as perfect as it sounds) if a company is truly trying to sucker a little bit more income out of it's buyers?

Going back to, say, Warcraft and its modders I will simply say that the world was different back then. Had I made a game back then and people wanted to run around modding it I'd be all for it. In that case, mods can help to extend the lifespan of a game making more sales over a longer period of time and letting the timeframe of the game grow around that. Baldur's Gate II is a great example of a classic game that mods are still being worked on for. Now the focus can be switched, using DLC to get the same amount of cash potentially in about 1/3rd of the time. I'm sure by now the entire world views BG2 as a complete success. With all the mods and such, the replayability of that game is astounding and I personally have had to buy the game about 3 times over the course of my life due to losing CDs in moves, bad roommates and just generally stupidity. Since I can buy Empire on Steam and avoid having to re-buy a game two or three times also changes things. Potential profits over a future course are suddenly quite different figures and predictions.

Now, I'll admit that since I try and look at how someone in the industry could try and maximize profits in a smaller window after a games release than it's fully possible that developers simply won't care if 5 years later someone is modding their game as they no longer have concern over releasing DLCs and such. I'll also admit that this is likely to occur. But again, I think looking at how the industry is changing and has changed that a modding community must consider the opposite in the event that it occurs.

If what you say is true about modding and the effort that goes into it to make it as "professionally" as they can, then perhaps that too could be viewed as a threat against DLC. What happens if modding becomes even less supported than it is now? More time and effort has to be thrown in to ensure that it works and it could become likely that with enough hands and minds working to create such a mod could end up being a more "professional" and polished release than the title itself, or the DLCs that follow it. Basically, if mods become too good there are then no reasons to buy DLCs putting directly in line-of-fire of things trying to sell said DLC.

[Dubh the dark]

Fantastic analysis kerowhacko. As you say it is a possibility and as such deserves further reflection. +rep

[r3deed]

untill you decide to sell your mods?

[EmberFlame]

Fantastic analysis kerowhacko. As you say it is a possibility and as such deserves further reflection. +rep

Okay, is it just me, or does anyone else find it REALLY annoying when someone calls a comment insightful and intelligent just because it agrees with their opinion?

But I do suppose I agree with the whole DLC content issue to a degree.

The possibility of selling mods brings up a very interesting point. One of the major problems with mods is that they tend to be hard to circulate, but are almost invariably superior to DLC or your average expansion (Warpath, im looking at you). If an enterprising company were to force circulation of mods through stream and put a small price on the download they could make a lot of money while increasing the overall circulation of a mod-afterall, it now has the approval of the company, which is insurance that it is both high quality and not going to screw up your computer.

Oh, and it could take all those developers that uses on DLC and just have them make the next game sooner, relying on the community to actually fix up the problems and limitations of the game. In this system the modders that make the best mods should receive some form of cash prize-like a tournament-so as to discourage them from trying to pirate the game and make the community leaders actively discourage said behavior. Thoughts?

[Achilla]

Fantastic analysis kerowhacko. As you say it is a possibility and as such deserves further reflection. +rep

If you want to feed your imagination with unwarranted fear and speculation, go ahead. The reason why Empire is 'less moddable' is simply it's different structure. CA has never actively supported modders and they continue to do so to this very day. When they design the engine, and later the games using that engine - they don't think about easy, friendly and intuitive environment for modders, in the first place. They look for high performance and flexibility instead, to make it easier for own content designers and programmers.

The customer is trying to get best bang for money, based on the information he has access too. Quite obviously, mainstream advertisement on TV, Internet and community portals gives gaming company an edge over more hardcore, tight-knit fan groups, such as modders or multiplayer clans. Because of that, and simple convenience (often unwarranted fear of installing/using mods, or artificial obstacles created by developer to make this process more troublesome ... cursed Steam), average customer will always look first - what DLC offers (do I like/need it?), second - how much DLC costs (Do I want to pay for it?), third - what offers the competition (mods). Quite obviously, if DLC's quality is sub-par or price isn't right, such customer is more likely to install a community-made mod instead.

The only company which would see modding as a direct threat to DLC, is an uninnovative, backwards-thinking company, unable to adapt to constantly changing gaming industry. These companies will be out of business in next decade or two, because of the competition. Game publisher isn't interested in how game designer is developing his game, only in the profit he makes - risk-averse, uninnovative companies have shrinking potential to generate long-term profit. The future lies in innovative companies, heavily integrating with all parts of it's fan community. Quality is the future, and mods bring back quality and innovation back to the industry.

Brand is quality, brand is innovation, brand is gaming community, brand is lifestyle - it's not just a logo. Logo won't sell your games. CA might have opened to casual market with ETW, but it can't ignore everyone else. This is steady road to ruin and a popular misconception, that games are produced based upon wishes of 'the majority'. No, they are not, because the majority doesn't even know what it really wants. Majority won't tell you what they really like or dislike in your game and why, they will either stay or go away without a word. You need someone passionate and of analytical mind to give you an idea of what's really going on. That is why no smart company ever ignores it's hardcore players.

Leading PC gaming company? Look at Blizzard. They are often cursed for being unimaginative, for slowing down the gaming industry, for not giving proper example as in golden past ... and yet quality of their games and unique social experience of 'Blizzard gaming' is enough to keep them on top, in the spotlight. And guess what, they don't create 'dumb' games - their games have depth. On the contrary, TW games were never deep, and TW games were never created as long, as the quality required it.

Instead, TW games were sold like washing powder, and 'the holes' were very selectively patched after release. Each year, new game. This is not road to quality. If anything is illegal here, it is their stupidity, stubbornness and unwillingness to produce quality games and address all concerns of it's gaming community. ETW modding tools? Silence. ETW bugs, discontinued support? Silence. NTW unit editor? Silence. Lack of active modding support despite public acclamations of love and admiration for modding? Silence.

Answer to your question in general? Yes, there exist stupid companies that might view modding as threat to DLC, or be too lazy to properly address all parts of their gaming community. But that's not what the future leading part of the industry is thinking.

Answer to your question in particular? No, CA/SEGA/whatever doesn't view us, modders, as illegal. They don't believe we are threat to DLC or the development of future titles in general. What they think is that hardcore part of the community is unimportant and can be readily ignored.

Okay, is it just me, or does anyone else find it REALLY annoying when someone calls a comment insightful and intelligent just because it agrees with their opinion?

But I do suppose I agree with the whole DLC content issue to a degree.

The possibility of selling mods brings up a very interesting point. One of the major problems with mods is that they tend to be hard to circulate, but are almost invariably superior to DLC or your average expansion (Warpath, im looking at you). If an enterprising company were to force circulation of mods through stream and put a small price on the download they could make a lot of money while increasing the overall circulation of a mod-afterall, it now has the approval of the company, which is insurance that it is both high quality and not going to screw up your computer.

Oh, and it could take all those developers that uses on DLC and just have them make the next game sooner, relying on the community to actually fix up the problems and limitations of the game. In this system the modders that make the best mods should receive some form of cash prize-like a tournament-so as to discourage them from trying to pirate the game and make the community leaders actively discourage said behavior. Thoughts?

Blizzard is trying to monetise on certain aspects of modding (modder has the choice to release free or paid modification over b.net), let's see what comes out of this. It's certainly too soon to even speculate about this matter.

[kerowhacko]

Ember - There's no way selling mods like that would work all that well after a certain point. More than likely if CA were to start selling larger user-made mods it would have to support them all. Problems can arise there if the modder suddenly disappears and CA has to handle any support issues or patching. You do that with enough mods and suddenly the effort involved might not outweigh the payout. I'll bring up the release of the original Wildfire expansion for Jagged Alliance 2. It was made by a 3rd party group and was a mod that SI decided to "buy" and put on the shelves. Some issues popped up involving money and how much the modders were due, so in response the modder refused to release any patches for Wildfire and all in all the only ones who really suffered were the ones who bought Wildfire and had to suffer with an awful release that barely worked. Let's say CA did start selling user made mods though. How do they pick which ones to sell? What do they do with other quality mods they don't pick? Does CA still make and release DLC packs?

They'll want a certain income level more or less from either DLCs or user-made mods. What happens if the mods stop selling because there's no support because the dev disappeared? Suddenly you have a pool of high-quality mods that could be sold, but since CA couldn't pick them all and had to cut some, that could interfere with the purchase of DLCs to make any money back. At that point, people don't need to buy DLCs because there are an available pool of potentially awesome, professionally made mods for free. Sure, CA could in theory snag them all up but that is a lot of things that aren't directly in their hands that could go wrong because the mod maker could have a lot more going on in his life than to focus full time on maintaining a mod. You have enough botched releases like that in which CA has little power over and people will get tired of that real soon.

Achilla, if Empire wanted to be "more moddable" then why haven't they released those mod tools that were promised? It has little to do with file structure after a certain point, since we all know at this point can be overcome. If they were truly supportive of the modding community they could at least give an answer as to why such things won't and aren't being released. Again, I'm not trying to delve into some paranoia scheme here, I'm just simply musing at the situation.

I'm not sure who's cursing Blizzard, as you put it, because the big difference I'll say between Blizz and CA is that Blizz's games on release work and are polished very well. Empire would have never left the office had Blizz been in charge of developing.

The bridges in advertising can easily be overcome given time. After I got big into BG2's "The Darkest Day" mod I made damn sure everyone I knew who had ever touched BG2 knew about it. Eventually, "normal" consumers will know where to look for a quality mod if they so desire. You get enough consumers looking at mods that give 90+ units for free versus paying $3-5 for 10 or so and you can start to see the problem. Word of mouth is still the most powerful tool when it comes to advertising, and it's also free. I know all my TW buddies check this site and it's not too far-fetched to assume they'd have told two or three of their friends as well.

Just keep in mind that in the grand scheme of things modding is really an optional potentially unnecessary thing for titles anymore. Now, if this TW community is as small as it may be then it might not be too big of an issue to look glance over it and not think anything of it. I'm just saying that if a community like this were to be put in the line of fire of, say, SEGA for potentially infringing on their DLC sales then I'd give you one good guess on who would win that fight. Again, Steam and DLCs are likely the future of TW games from here on out which probably means less support for modding over time and more DLC packs per release since it seems that it's proven fairly successful so far. But, all in all if modding truly weren't an issue/something CA was wanting to support then there would be a concise answer somewhere as to the lack of modding tools.

[Achilla]

Smart companies actively support modding, and use quality community-made mods as a quality benchmark for their own games, expansions and DLC packs. That is all I have to say about it. What route CA has taken is clearly visible. For certain, game industry won't allow a bunch of incompetent people ruin such fantastic strategy niche. The only way to save your product from competition is enter the race for quality yourself, and that's something they better do with Shogun 2 ... post-release support is the key here, besides high-quality product put on the shelves.

In all seriousness, though, if you fear the quality of amateur modifications severely limited on resources, manpower and time ... you won't survive professional competition either. On the other hand, loving and passionate community is going to save you from disaster and give you very precise hints as to which areas you need to improve, to bring back the highest quality. Unsurprisingly, it is the most passionate and creative fans, that will be of most use to you.

[kerowhacko]

Keep in mind that I am ultimately in agreement with you. I felt that Empire's release was a big step-back for CA and I really hope Shogun is better. The forced Steam, the DLCs, the lack of modding tools and the god-awful state the game in was on release put a bad taste in my mouth. Adding in the fact that Napoleon easily could have been done not only as a user-made mod, but also basically an expansion and not released at a full-title price for something that seems to be about 1/3rd of what Empire is in terms of raw content. Add in new DLC to that which seems to contain a chunk of units that were in Empire to begin with and Napoleon itself (in my mind) comes off as a large cash grab. If this truly is the future of CA then I'm not certain they're a company I'll put much faith in.

Again, I'm pretty much agreeing with you at least in terms of the game design industry as a whole and how modding should be viewed as a positive thing. I'm mostly keeping my arguments to being about CA more than anything/anyone else.

[EmberFlame]

I think its telling that blizzard, which is not necessarily creative but always finishes its games ("When will it be done? When its done!") ends up with incredibly creative mods that are completely different then the base gameplay. You could play a mario party clone on wc3 (uther party) a game all about teamwork and controlling a single unit (Dota) or any number of other "custom games" (mods) that drastically altered the game-play. Meanwhile, the total war mods can only fix blatant errors and add minor things to the campaign map.

Blizzards relationship with its modders will be intrinstically different then CA's because its modders do completly different things. What does this mean? Not a whole lot, really. This "issue", as it is, is only recent. We wont be able to tell whats going to happen yet.

[YD23]

Moved to General TW and Discussion.