Further explanation about the tax system and the tax buildings

[Archontis]

Well......

[mp84]

Well......

Probably wanna check this post:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=387577

As it explains pretty well the Taxable Income and why it's like the way it is in the game.

[Archontis]

I have read this many times
I would like to know about how high taxation makes the population poorer.If i set taxes at very high my tax collectors will bring me less income per turn???

[Tsim]

weirdly adding 2000 men to a settlement with building giving 1900% tax rate does almost nothing i thought tax was based on population

[Archontis]

Let's hope dvk will explain us how taxation works

[Siegfriedfr]

It's very hard to find reliable info about the taxing system.

One thing that comes back often from dvk, but i dont know how it works, is that the more you build tax buildings, the more unhappy people become and eventually you get less income from tax.

I have no idea if this is the philosophy of the system, or the way it actually works.

[Archontis]

Me too i was wondering all day if i should build these tax buildings or not

[apple]

Don't build them if you don't really, really need them.
Try to keep the taxes at normal all the time and your economy will be doing great.
I have explained this in another thread but I guess I have to do it again.

If a citizen in one of your cities got 1000d and you tax him 50% the he's only going to have 500d left.
Let's say that he earns 100d until the next time you tax him (aka the next turn) then he's going to have 600d and after the 50% taxing only 300 left.
The state (you) only got 300d this time while you got 500 the last time. You would get 200d the next time you'd taxed him and then even lower amounts.
If you instead tax him 25% then you get 250d the first round and then 750+100 x 0.25 = 212,5 that's not that much less than the first time now is it.
And if you tax him even less, let's say 10% then you get 100d the first round and then 900+100 x 0.10 = 100d, exactly the same amount every turn.
And if you tax him even less then you will get more for each turn. Let's say 5%. You get 50d the first turn and then 950+100 x 0.05 = 52.5d.

I hope this helps.

[Archontis]

yes it helped a lot

[DUFFMAN]

Don't build them if you don't really, really need them.
Try to keep the taxes at normal all the time and your economy will be doing great.
I have explained this in another thread but I guess I have to do it again.

If a citizen in one of your cities got 1000d and you tax him 50% the he's only going to have 500d left.
Let's say that he earns 100d until the next time you tax him (aka the next turn) then he's going to have 600d and after the 50% taxing only 300 left.
The state (you) only got 300d this time while you got 500 the last time. You would get 200d the next time you'd taxed him and then even lower amounts.
If you instead tax him 25% then you get 250d the first round and then 750+100 x 0.25 = 212,5 that's not that much less than the first time now is it.
And if you tax him even less, let's say 10% then you get 100d the first round and then 900+100 x 0.10 = 100d, exactly the same amount every turn.
And if you tax him even less then you will get more for each turn. Let's say 5%. You get 50d the first turn and then 950+100 x 0.05 = 52.5d.

I hope this helps.

Funny explanation, but I don't think this is how it works in RTW. I believe the game just uses a standard value (expressed in money) for 1 citizen, and then that value is multiplied by the amount of citizens (which equals total taxable income), and then the game takes a certain percentage from the total amount of taxable income (that percentage being influenced by tax level and tax bonuses), giving you your tax revenues.

For example, (I don't know the real values):
1 citizen = 2 denarii
citizens = 10.000
taxable income = 20.000
tax percentage (+ bonuses) = 40%
tax revenues (per turn) = 8000

In the long run, you will not get less tax revenues as long as you don't let the population shrink.

I might be wrong about all this, but to me it seems the system you, apple, described is way too complicated for such an old game

[Tsim]

Nah you're not wrong the tax system in RTW is explained in detail here http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...831-Tax-Income

[Archontis]

Guys i just have a simple question..
in order to have a stable and profitable economy should i build the tax buildings or should i focus on buildings with penalties on taxes such as wells,ports........etc
Or should i combine them both?
I am playing as romans on H/VH.I have wiped out the roman rebels and carthage from Italy and now i don't now how should i upgrade my cities in order to gain more profit(i gain 70000 d per year but i want more for my armies)

[DUFFMAN]

Nah you're not wrong the tax system in RTW is explained in detail here http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...831-Tax-Income

That looks too complicated for me

@ Archontis, I think you should combine them. What I do in my campaigns is first start building a lot of tax bonus buildings, and after that I start building other stuff that in turn negates those bonuses. And I always have my taxes on medium/normal, everywhere.

[Archontis]

this is want i wanted to make but according to apple iif i set my taxes on medium in the end my people won't have any money to pay
I also have my taxes always on medium but i want to know how the tax buildings affect the money i get at the end.If i build the last tax building(the one with 160% bonus)will this make the people poorer and poorer and at the end they won't be able to pay me the money they paid me when i first built it?

[MadJackMcJack]

If a citizen in one of your cities got 1000d and you tax him 50% the he's only going to have 500d left.
Let's say that he earns 100d until the next time you tax him (aka the next turn) then he's going to have 600d and after the 50% taxing only 300 left.
The state (you) only got 300d this time while you got 500 the last time. You would get 200d the next time you'd taxed him and then even lower amounts.
If you instead tax him 25% then you get 250d the first round and then 750+100 x 0.25 = 212,5 that's not that much less than the first time now is it.
And if you tax him even less, let's say 10% then you get 100d the first round and then 900+100 x 0.10 = 100d, exactly the same amount every turn.
And if you tax him even less then you will get more for each turn. Let's say 5%. You get 50d the first turn and then 950+100 x 0.05 = 52.5d.

I hope this helps.

Am I right in thinking low taxes = 5%, medium - 10%, high = 25% and very high = 50%? And is there any way to make Johnny Citizen increase his earnings beyond low taxation? Or is that what all the tax bonuses do?

[mp84]

Hmm,

This is probably because I'm so use to other mods that pretty much required you taxes to be on at least High, or else your generals start to get bad traits. So the question I have is that not the case anymore? in other words, I can set it to medium and still be ok?

[Hrobatos]

trade dudes, thats where real money is, conquer sea cities, build ports, make them trade cities, make comtinental cities as military towns with a lot of soldiers ti protect your trade cities
and you will have a lot of money

[Bosje]

eh?

i always read things about RS2 being about taxes a lot more than about trade, so the bulk of your income will come from taxes while the ports, roads, etc don't add money anymore, they COST money (taxmoney paying for infrastructure) but they make your whole empire more efficient and smooth and funky which will somehow provide a bonus to your economy (increase in trade income) while taking a little bite out of your tax money
which makes sense but it confuses the hell out of me anyway...

because at the end of the day (well, at the end of the turn) taxmoney and trademoney are the same
they show up as cash for you to spend on buildings and troops

so a road might add 10% trade bonus while costing 10% taxmoney, making it only any use to run your legions around

but:
i was also always told that RS is designed for 'high' taxes on all cities, with these new Tax lvl1,2,3 etc buildings added to levy an additional tax on your people at the cost of grumpiness

so i was playing it like this: high taxes everywhere, build all the infrastructure because you need it, build all the trade expeditions and glass making and wine export and all the other stuff, because it will most likely do your economy good. and build those 1-turn cheap tax buildings in case of emergency to raise income dramatically.

(doesnt stop me building those taxbuildings anway because my people are happy enough and i can use the cash to fund more glorious cities)

what is up with this stupid notion that you tax total wealth instead of yearly income? surely it's bullcrap to have a 'high' taxrate result in diminishing returns? the city is still growing and still happy, so more and more people come to it/are born and raised in it, the city flourishes, trade and infrastructure are booming, etc etc. surely it would make sense for a sustained 'high' taxrate to offer more and more return for each year???

a man has 1000 denari and you take half (500), next year you take half again and it's down to 250. yes.
but who came up with the idea that that's how it should work? blustering morons!
a man MAKES 1000 and you take half.
next year he makes 1000 again and you take half again. every year you take 500 and as the city is still growing, there are ever more people to take 500 from so every year your budget can increase

is this NOT how it works???

meanwhile you spend that cash on buildings to increase his trade and happiness and health and you give him citizenship and you protect him from barbarians and you make his son a centurion in the glorious roman legions etc etc etc. surely that's the whole idea of governing an empire

[DUFFMAN]

a man has 1000 denari and you take half (500), next year you take half again and it's down to 250. yes.
but who came up with the idea that that's how it should work? blustering morons!
a man MAKES 1000 and you take half.
next year he makes 1000 again and you take half again. every year you take 500 and as the city is still growing, there are ever more people to take 500 from so every year your budget can increase

is this NOT how it works???

I would say that is how it works, but I can't base that on anything but logic. And I think a man does not make 1000, but 1 or 2 per turn. Imagine how much money you would get if you had 10.000 citizens, each getting 1000 taxable income per turn on a tax percentage of, say, 20%

[Tsim]

I do't think the RTW engine assigns any "money" to each member of tha populatioin its a flat percentage rate following several linear/non linear equations and i am pretty sure its hardcoded (ie in the .exe). however the Good/BadTaxman line of traits is gone. so there are no penalties to setting the tax to medium.
i tax the crap out of my home provinces and haven't seen the diminishing returns which was named earlier