Explanation of Calvins Roman Leadership System?

[Dull_Gladius]

Thanks for the fix mp84. I find I end up messing stuff up whenever I try to edit large text files. Now my Scipio Africanus can earn the ranks he deserves ^^.

[tone]

....and of course in real life Nepos died at the battle of Lake Trasimene anyway!

mp84, what's happening is that those generals I'm sure had reached the correct level on the Patrician_Military_Tree trait which is hidden and just works as a counter (there are loads of hidden traits that count things) in the background so when you removed the need for the Marian reforms to have happened then it all worked well. If you do want to check this, then go to this section:

Trait Patrician_Military_Tree
Characters family
Hidden
ExcludeCultures barbarian, greek, eastern, egyptian, carthaginian, nomad
NoGoingBackLevel 3
AntiTraits PatricianMilitaryDemotion

and comment out Hidden. You'll then see whether the trait is at level 1, 2 or 3 (sufficient for Tribune, Legatus or Legatos Legionis). I'll take a look at the two turn triggering issue.

[mp84]

awesome Tone, as usual thanks for the help and looking forward to your continued improvements

[tone]

Tell me....how many turns after leaving a settlement does the character get their trait?

The reaon being that the trigger is ending the turn outside the settlement so you won't get the Tribune/Legatus/Legatus Legionis trait until after the end of the turn after the character leaves their settlement.

[mp84]

Tell me....how many turns after leaving a settlement does the character get their trait?

The reaon being that the trigger is ending the turn outside the settlement so you won't get the Tribune/Legatus/Legatus Legionis trait until after the end of the turn after the character leaves their settlement.

When you mean by leaving the settlement, do you mean leaving the region itself? (E.G. in Rome region, then has to move to Capua region instead)

The only reason why I ask, is I don't think it mattered, in the test I did, I left the character in the same region, but outside his city, and the first time I ended turn, he did not get any tribune trait, but then I ended the turn again, and then he got the trait.

I'll have to do some more testing as I play with other characters and see what happens. Anyway, hope that somewhat helps you.

I will say, the Legatus and Legatus Legionis trait is working like a charm now, as my commander in Sardinia (I think it's Sardinia, always confuse Corsica and that one, but almost positive, whatever the case, it's the island closer to Carthage, lol) has had a couple of battles already fending off the Carthaginian invasions, and now that I feel like it's time to move him to main so he can gather a full legion and head him to Iberia, he got the Legatus trait the moment I ended turn when he was outside) which is awesome

[tone]

When you mean by leaving the settlement, do you mean leaving the region itself? (E.G. in Rome region, then has to move to Capua region instead)

The only reason why I ask, is I don't think it mattered, in the test I did, I left the character in the same region, but outside his city, and the first time I ended turn, he did not get any tribune trait, but then I ended the turn again, and then he got the trait.

I'll have to do some more testing as I play with other characters and see what happens. Anyway, hope that somewhat helps you.

I will say, the Legatus and Legatus Legionis trait is working like a charm now, as my commander in Sardinia (I think it's Sardinia, always confuse Corsica and that one, but almost positive, whatever the case, it's the island closer to Carthage, lol) has had a couple of battles already fending off the Carthaginian invasions, and now that I feel like it's time to move him to main so he can gather a full legion and head him to Iberia, he got the Legatus trait the moment I ended turn when he was outside) which is awesome

That's good then.

By in the settlement I mean in the settlement, not in the region.
I'll check on the tribune issue. Was that a Patrician who didn't make tribune straight away?

[mp84]

That's good then.

By in the settlement I mean in the settlement, not in the region.
I'll check on the tribune issue. Was that a Patrician who didn't make tribune straight away?

Correct, and it also happened today for one my new patrician generals, it took almost 2-3 turns for him to finally get the Tribunis rank.

[Edward the Confessor]

Thank you mp84 for the upload and to the apple for giving us permission.

[tone]

so basically we just need to make sure that the premarian generals remain tribunes.

[Gaius Livius]

so basically we just need to make sure that the premarian generals remain tribunes.

If you want to be historically correct yes I would leave it as it is. I guess it comes down to RS2 Dev Team and players preference.

[tone]

If we could manage to produce three different levels of tribune for the Premarians, that'd be ideal I think.

[mp84]

If we could manage to produce three different levels of tribune for the Premarians, that'd be ideal I think.

That would be ideal, but I do see the issue in making sure those extra tier of tribunes don't happen post-marian. Maybe, perhaps the same way you put the requirement that you need to be post-marian to see Legatus or Legatus Legionis, you can reverse that effect for the pre-marian generals? So in other words, only during Pre-marian times can extra traits of Tribunes be valid. Not sure if it's even possible, but just an idea hopefully.

[tone]

That would be ideal, but I do see the issue in making sure those extra tier of tribunes don't happen post-marian. Maybe, perhaps the same way you put the requirement that you need to be post-marian to see Legatus or Legatus Legionis, you can reverse that effect for the pre-marian generals? So in other words, only during Pre-marian times can extra traits of Tribunes be valid. Not sure if it's even possible, but just an idea hopefully.

Easy enough.

[HerzoG]

how long does is take to become legatus legionis? my best general gaius cornelius scipio wasnt in city soice nearly 30 truns and fights every turn but he is sill only legatus

[sithlord447]

While not historical for the sake of game play i think players should have access to legates as for RP and plain fun reasons over the historical game play

[dvk901]

I think the RS2 team got it about right though. I think that 1) not enough prestige comes with the premarian rank of tribune, and 2) most don't understand how prestigious a tribune actually was in the premarian era.


In premarian times, there were 6 tribunes to a legion, two of whom commanded the legion at any time. Thus, tribunes were the equivalent to a modern-day "colonel" or naval "captain" (which is a command rank in the modern armed forces).



In postmarian times, the tribunes transformed into a junior officer position, because each legion had their own legate or "general". Thus, their influence dilluted into that of a modern day junior officer (Lieutenant. through major). Tribunes stopped commanding armies and became apprenticeships for future senators who sought prized military experience.

You are correct. Six Tribunes were assigned to a Legion, and two shared command of the Legion for a time. They were called 'Tribvnvs Militi'. Thus the description for the early commanding General reads:

In the Republican period, there were six appointed to each legion. Authority was given to two at a time, and command rotated among the six. Tribunes were men of Senatorial status appointed by the Senate. To attain the position of tribune, one only needed to be a member of the ruling class — ability was not taken into account. Additionally, in the early Republic, military tribunes were sometimes chosen in place of the annually elected consuls to be the heads of the Roman State. These are known in Latin as 'tribuni militum consulari potestate', "Military Tribunes with Consular Authority." Instead of the usual two consuls, between four and six military tribunes were elected for the year. The reasons for this choice are obscure, though Livy often cast the decision according to the class struggles he saw as endemic during this period, with patricians generally favoring consuls and plebs the military tribunes. This practice eventually fell out of use after 366 BC, and Tribunes were limited to command of Rome's Legions.

After the reforms their responsibilities changed:

After the Marian reforms created a professional system, legions were commanded by a legionary legate (legatus). Six tribunes were still posted to a legion, but their duties and responsibilities had changed. The second in command to the legate was the tribunus laticlavius, a young man of Senatorial rank. He was given this position to learn and watch the actions of the legate. The other five tribunes were slightly lower in rank, and were called the tribuni angusticlavii. These were men of equestrian rank who had seen prior military action.\n\nThe commander of a legion in our period was invariably a Senator of some standing - a man who had already had a varied military and administrative career, and who had probably reached the rank of praetor at Rome. His official title was 'legatus legionis' because, while theoretically the Emperor held all military power, in practice he delegated it to trusted Senators. Such legionary legates were, on the whole, tough, experienced and highly competent officers, though there were some notable exceptions, and all must, at some time, have served as junior officers or tribuni.

While not historical for the sake of game play i think players should have access to legates as for RP and plain fun reasons over the historical game play

I understand this, and have been thinking of ways to slightly 'circumvent' the current Leadership system to reflect a parallel course of advance. For example, the current system works fine for a character who fights a few battles, is made a governor, or sits in a fort the rest of his life by your (the Senate's, or the Emperor's) choice. BUT, it doesn't take into account that you may be fighting numerous battles with this General, winning left and right, taking large swathes of territory, and all the while he is just a 'Centurion' or something. That part of this system, IMHO, doesn't work very well. So, I am taking into account what has been said about Generals not gaining stars even though they should be deified () for heroics, and the fact that they are fighting all these battles and winning them for an 'imaginary' General who is never present, while they get nothing in return. Anyway, this will probably involve some kind of 'battle counter' that progrssively awards things.

[AgentGB]

I understand this, and have been thinking of ways to slightly 'circumvent' the current Leadership system to reflect a parallel course of advance. For example, the current system works fine for a character who fights a few battles, is made a governor, or sits in a fort the rest of his life by your (the Senate's, or the Emperor's) choice. BUT, it doesn't take into account that you may be fighting numerous battles with this General, winning left and right, taking large swathes of territory, and all the while he is just a 'Centurion' or something. That part of this system, IMHO, doesn't work very well. So, I am taking into account what has been said about Generals not gaining stars even though they should be deified () for heroics, and the fact that they are fighting all these battles and winning them for an 'imaginary' General who is never present, while they get nothing in return. Anyway, this will probably involve some kind of 'battle counter' that progrssively awards things.

just a suggestion, but how about for military traits, althou you may just want to solve the current military trait problem, having titles act as ancillaries/retinue. that can be scripted to spawn at a blank/non exsistent General (so it cant be used as a governor) in rome, so you can send General you feel have earnt these titles to go to rome to be commissioned (by dragging the ancillaries/retinue in your general traits) If the general with the comission dies, they will respawn back at at the black general situated at rome (acting as the senate) Now to complicate things modding wise, if possbile, certain titles can only be given to certain generals dependings on there military prowness/or rank amongest the senate, to stop players givin the highest title to whoever they please

just a suggestion, if the current trait system can be improved that would be the better option, im not sure if you lose the military traits while garrisoned in a fort, but ive lost the trait while taking a settlement in an ongoing turn playing out, which is a bit annoying because you do your best to keep them out in the field to keep those traits, only to be lost while sacking a city during an on going turn

edit: just realised that generals are hardcoded to die so the disturbtion of traits in this matter wouldnt work, but hopefully the concept might be helpful

[Imperator of Rome]

Any luck on making the centurion etc military titles show/work?

[TiFlo]

@ AgentGB
Another problem with such a system is that characters are limited to a maximum of 8 ancillaries. For most of your family members, that would be way too restrictive.

[bigmilt16]

It sounds great, but just don't do ancillaries. A big problem in EB was that ancillaries of provincial governorships could not be assigned to Senators because their ancillaries filled up by the age of 18.

Traits are definitely the way to go to make more military commands.