Explanation of Calvins Roman Leadership System?

[Merula]

Hi guys great mod, ive just got a couple of questions regarding the patrician/plebian/equestrian traits.
When i was playing i saw that your starting family tree for Rome (i think the Maximi...somethings) where all patrician.

This was fine untill their sons started to become plebians and equestrians???

Correct me if i am wrong but doesnt this seem a bit a-historical, i understand that families would fluctuate in wealth over time but a patrician family suddenly becoming plebian in one generation??? I am just a bit confused on this.

[apple]

Yeah we think there is a glitch in that trait line. Should be fixed in the first patch.

[Merula]

Yeah we think there is a glitch in that trait line. Should be fixed in the first patch.

Ok thanks, just thought i might point it out.
Keep up the good work

[Dull_Gladius]

Didn't really get an answer on this before, but would adding traits such as legatus etc. manually via the tilde key be harmful to my campaign in any way?

[mp84]

Didn't really get an answer on this before, but would adding traits such as legatus etc. manually via the tilde key be harmful to my campaign in any way?

Not sure, worse comes to worse you can always save it, then try it, then play a few turns (without doing anything major) to see what happens, not ideal but it's something. (And also perhaps back your entire RS 2 folder, so if something does majorly screw up, you can just overwrite all changes)

Also, I do know this is not the only glitch, and totally understand the need to release a patch with many fixes and not just a particular one, but these trait glitches are totally killing my RP immersion of my campaign, lol.

So, perhaps a suggestion, but maybe anyone that's really good with traits, can look into this, and maybe post it in sub-mods forum their fixes? This way, we can use it at our own discretion kind of things. Similar to way some mod makers post some quick fixes in their sub-mods forum before a major patch comes out.

[SMoVader]

Does the glitch concern the "Political General" trait as well? All of my generals get it lol.

[tone]

OK, looking at this.
I'm aware that DVK and I had some discusion around the proper naming of generals pre and post Marian reforms. I've a feeling that the consensus was that Roman generals weren't called Legatus prior to the Roman reforms which is why there's an extra trigger requiring a Marian_Reforms_Legatus_Trait2 > 0 for the Legatus and Legatus Legionis, but I'll check. I think the correct term prior to the reforms was Tribunus Militi but I'll check on that....

For this reason Calvin's diagrams may be inaccurate. I'll go and check this though.

[mp84]

OK, looking at this.
I'm aware that DVK and I had some discusion around the proper naming of generals pre and post Marian reforms. I've a feeling that the consensus was that Roman generals weren't called Legatus prior to the Roman reforms which is why there's an extra trigger requiring a Marian_Reforms_Legatus_Trait2 > 0 for the Legatus and Legatus Legionis, but I'll check. I think the correct term prior to the reforms was Tribunus Militi but I'll check on that....

For this reason Calvin's diagrams may be inaccurate. I'll go and check this though.

ahh ok, that makes a lot sense, looking forward to any updates.

[tone]

With regard to Plebeian sons of Patrician fathers, I can't see how this could be happening outside of an adoption context. The coming of age context doesn't allow any alternative to being a Patrician son of a Patrician father.

Trigger Character_Comes_Of_Age_Patrician
WhenToTest CharacterComesOfAge
Condition CultureType roman
and FatherTrait Patrician > 0
Affects Patrician 1 Chance 100

The real question, I guess is what we think the adopted sons or sons who marry into the various classes should be? Weren't Plebeians sometimes adopted by Patricians? I'm not sure, so if someone could tell us what the history was, that'd be great.

[tone]

Quick question to those that are playing.
What's happening to these Patricians? Do they sometimes start off as Tribunus, but then lose the Tribunus trait even when in the field fighting? If so, I can see the reason for this.

Basically the Military careers for Patricians and Equestrians are controlled by the Patrician_Military_Tree trait.

Now for a patrician that first becomes a general, all should be fine and they should get the Tribunus trait:

;------------------------------------------
Trigger Military_Rank_Tribunus_01
WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd
Condition IsGeneral
and not EndedInSettlement
and CultureType roman
and not Trait Plebeian = 1
and Trait Patrician_Military_Tree = 1
and Trait Quaestor = 0
and Trait Aedile = 0
and Trait Curule_Aedile = 0
and Trait Praetor = 0
and Trait Propraetor = 0
and Trait Consul = 0
and Trait Proconsul = 0
and Trait Censor = 0
Affects Tribunus 2 Chance 100

i.e. they're not Plebeian, they've reached level one on the military tree (for Patricians this is automatic, for Equestrians they need to do some fighting and winning of battles first).

However, once they get past level 1, the conditional for post-Marian reforms comes in so, I think, they end up as nothing:

;------------------------------------------
Trigger Military_Rank_Legatus_01
WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd
Condition IsGeneral
and not EndedInSettlement
and CultureType roman
and not Trait Plebeian = 1
and Trait Patrician_Military_Tree = 2
and Trait Quaestor = 0
and Trait Aedile = 0
and Trait Curule_Aedile = 0
and Trait Praetor = 0
and Trait Propraetor = 0
and Trait Consul = 0
and Trait Proconsul = 0
and Trait Censor = 0
and Trait Marian_Reforms_Legatus_Trait2 > 0
Affects Legatus 3 Chance 100

At the moment there's nothing that will happen with the poor guy who is further up the Patrician Military Career Tree than the first step before the Marian reforms kick in. There's no trigger that makes him anything. So we need to sort this out.

There is a quick fix to this (whether it's save game compatible of not, I'm not sure) which is to comment out (by putting a semi-colon at the start of the line) every line that is this:

and Trait Marian_Reforms_Legatus_Trait2 > 0

but even then I'm not sure that the code is all correct as it looks like these lines are all requiring advance on the Patrician Military Tree (which is driven by battle successes) and not automatic on reaching a certain senatorial position:

;------------------------------------------
Trigger Military_Rank_Legatus_03
WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd
Condition IsGeneral
and not EndedInSettlement
and CultureType roman
and not Trait Plebeian = 1
and Trait Patrician_Military_Tree = 2
and Trait Praetor = 1
and Trait Marian_Reforms_Legatus_Trait2 > 0
Affects Legatus 3 Chance 100
;------------------------------------------
Trigger Military_Rank_Legatus_04
WhenToTest CharacterTurnStart
Condition IsGeneral
and EndedInSettlement
and CultureType roman
and not Trait Plebeian = 1
and Trait Patrician_Military_Tree = 2
and Trait Praetor = 1
and Trait Marian_Reforms_Legatus_Trait2 > 0
and IsUnderSiege
Affects Legatus 3 Chance 100
;------------------------------------------
Trigger Military_Rank_Legatus_05
WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd
Condition IsGeneral
and not EndedInSettlement
and CultureType roman
and not Trait Plebeian = 1
and Trait Patrician_Military_Tree = 2
and Trait Propraetor = 1
and Trait Marian_Reforms_Legatus_Trait2 > 0
Affects Legatus 3 Chance 100
;------------------------------------------
Trigger Military_Rank_Legatus_06
WhenToTest CharacterTurnStart
Condition IsGeneral
and EndedInSettlement
and CultureType roman
and not Trait Plebeian = 1
and Trait Patrician_Military_Tree = 2
and Trait Propraetor = 1
and Trait Marian_Reforms_Legatus_Trait2 > 0
and IsUnderSiege
Affects Legatus 3 Chance 100

So for these triggers both the bit in red would need commenting out (place semi-colon at the start of that line) and (as a quick fix whilst we sort out the Premarian generals' traits) the lines with

and Trait Marian_Reforms_Legatus_Trait2 > 0

I hope that makes sense.

[DaddyPro]

What about character becoming consul or praetor w/o being aedile 1st?

[tone]

What about character becoming consul or praetor w/o being aedile 1st?

Is this really happening or is it people not seeing the previous traits?

So when you say you need to sort out the premarian generals traits, does that mean after the marian reforms generals progress through their careers normally? Sorry if I misunderstood, you explained it quite well.

Should be fine, other than Praetor, Propraetor, etc not getting automatic Legatus / Legatus Legionis.

[Dull_Gladius]

So when you say you need to sort out the premarian generals traits, does that mean after the marian reforms generals progress through their careers normally? Sorry if I misunderstood, you explained it quite well.

[DaddyPro]

Ive posted screenshots from my campaign in this tread where one of my characters became praetor w/o being aedile, and just now my faction leader became consul after spending only 1 turn in a city.

[tone]

If you read Calvin's diagram, generals who've reached Legatus can skip Aedile and Quaestor so I suspect it's to do with that. If you look at this trigger, you'll see that t he conditions are fulfilled if the character:

1) isn't plebeian
2) is at Legatus or Legatus Legionis level on the Patrician Military Tree
3) is at a certain level on the Civil Career path
4) Has adequate prestige

Trigger Civil_Rank_Praetor_Elected_Legatus
WhenToTest CharacterTurnStart
Condition IsGeneral
and EndedInSettlement
and CultureType roman
and FactionLeaderTrait Praetor_Election > 0
and not Trait Plebeian = 1
and Trait Patrician_Military_Tree > 1
and Trait Civil_Career_Restriction > 3
and Trait RomanCivilPrestiage > 2
and Trait Quaestor = 0
and Trait Aedile = 0
and Trait Curule_Aedile = 0
and Trait Praetor = 0
and Trait Propraetor = 0
and Trait Consul = 0
and Trait Proconsul = 0
and Trait Censor = 0
and Trait Former_Censor = 0
and Trait Tribune_Plebs = 0
Affects Praetor 1 Chance 30

There is a similar trigger for the Plebeians, but with more stringent criteria - they have to have reached Legatus Legionis and have more prestige.

So even though you're not seeing the character as Legatus or Legatus Legionis for the reasons I explained earlier, he's clearly reached that level on the Patrician Military Tree.

[mp84]

Thanks Tone, those changes make perfect sense and I'll go and do those now, (backed up my trait first), and see if those changes go into effect in my save game.

I'll update here with a edit to this thread if no one has posted naturally.

[tone]

I don't know whether anyone is good with the historical aspects and can tell us for sure whether the positions of Legatus and Legatus Legionis existed before the Marian reforms. Clearly Julius Caesar has some Legati working for him. The timing of any changes seems somewhat hazy but seemed to point towards it being a change after the Marian reforms.

[sithlord447]

;------------------------------------------
Trigger Military_Rank_Plebeian_Legatus_Legionis_03
WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd
Condition CultureType roman
and IsGeneral
and not EndedInSettlement
and Trait Plebeian = 1
and Trait Plebeian_Military_Tree = 5
and Trait Consul = 1
and Trait Marian_Reforms_Legatus_Trait2 > 0
Affects Plebeian_Legatus_Legionis 2 Chance 100

I think i know why consuls, and pretors are not auto becoming the legatus legionis/legatus as it makes sense that consul has to = 1, however it also requires that they have rank 5 on the plebian military path(same for pats/equestrians on their path too) so even though they are consul they may not have reached that far on the military path making them unable to get the rank they are supposed too

[DaddyPro]

there's very small chance that my praetor guy had legatus status as he won only 2 battles when he took Syracuse and hes equestrian so he shouldve get tribunus 1st, but thats not imposible i guess
i just noticed that one of the screenshots got removed for some reason from imageshack well doesnt matter i guess.

[tone]

and Trait Plebeian_Military_Tree = 5

You're right - see my previous explanation: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...77#post8070977