Explanation of Calvins Roman Leadership System?

[sithlord447]

im not sure that the conquer trait system is all there, either as i have had 1 general conquer all of carthage's african cities, but no trait to show that he's the conquer of carthage, and no triumpth. I did not even no said traits exisited unil looking through the file

[mp84]

Hope these screenshots can help as well, but do think their may be a minor issue.

For example, the two screenshots below, Are both generals who have been out in the field for at least 2 turns, and since they are of the Patrician class, they should be automatically tribunes, but that's not the case, as seen below.

So hope this helps:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Jon Arbuckle]

I've been digging through the trait files and just wow...it's intimidating how many different traits and triggers there are for the roman leadership alone. I can't be sure since I've only scanned through it, but it seems like the same effects could be gained using less roundabout ways...at least at first glance. Although there's so much depth I am sure to have missed something. I'll keep looking tomorrow. With this many triggers and traits there's no wonder there are a few bugs! Amazing that there are so few and no ctds!

[Gotenus]

Looking at the triggers for that trait, are you sure that your generals are ending in settlements which are under siege?

[DaddyPro]

Looking at the triggers for that trait, are you sure that your generals are ending in settlements which are under siege?

Its just random trigger for legatus trait, all of them has same line while tribunus doesnt.

[Tsim]

I think its no wonder the traits are buggy they still have the BadFarmer/BadTrader kicking in with all the upgrades built in the settlement and thats been around 5 years

[Rex Basiliscus]

As a beta tester I can tell you that Legatus/Legatus Legionis etc. traits have worked fine with me. I even got a Praefectus Castrorum, which I consider the most hard one to get (even though it's below Legatus Legionis, I think).

The traits will come in time... I have always assumed that characters personalities and ableness was what helped a lot in getting those traits...
It takes some time, though to get to Legatus Legionis... for example, in post-rebellion time, I had my Emperor take his legion, along with another, to Britain. He then conquered to the point where Hadrian's wall is and then I sent him back to Rome to retrain the army for an assault on Egypt. This alone took me at least 20 turns. When he came to Egypt another 15 turns later, he was a Legatus Legionis (even though before Britain he had military experiences, but no military career trait - except possibly Tribunus).

I advise you to take your generals (preferably younger ones, and those that don't have "Bad Military Commander" or whatever the trait) on a longer campaigns... Spain and Greece, ideally, since they would most likely cost you a lot of years of fighting. Remember not to put them in cities for a longer period of time (even though I think the military traits are restored once a "governor" with past military achievements goes back to the field) and try to fight with them as much as you are able. One minute you'll look at the traits and you'll see a Legatus Legionis trait, I assure you.

For the one that said that Conqueror traits aren't working and aren't shown... they are working. The reasons that they wouldn't work are many: you didn't conquer the capital city (Carthage) with the same general that conquered 6 African cities; the general didn't conquer the 6 African cities on his own - you might've entered a settlement with another general, even though the general you wanted, fought alongside him.
For the Conqueror of Africa trait you need: capital - Carthage + Hadrumentum, Thapsus, Cirta, Hippo Regius, Siga (and if next turn you still don't get it, try capturing Tingi also - I'm not sure if it requires 6 or 7 regions...). I got the Africanus epiphet twice.

Edit: as far as command stars are concerned... yes, they are hard to get. You can only acquire them via battles and if you think, wasn't that how the great commanders acquired military prestige? Through years of campaigns, battles etc.? This is how you will get them - there is no quick way of getting it, unless your general has a "NaturalMilitaryGenius" trait or some others that give you command stars.

Edit2: tone, I think the Former Quaestor and the like, should be visible allowing a player to keep track with the progress of a character (good for AAR's). I don't know about the triggers and thresholds, the only thing I don't like with the traits are the great amounts of Influence traits Though I know it's better this way, since influence could be acquired easily, even bougth, while command and managment ability could not

[Bosje]

thanks, basileus

i was wondering about this:
my heir had been fighting since he came of age and made it to Praefectus Castrorum, he also had some stars from ancillaries and he was an allround great guy, but i had him in what is now Gibraltrar for a few turns because the spanish betrayed me and he had to guard it until i could move a governor+garrison there.

when i took him and his legion out again, he had become a boring dull and imcompetent governour and he wasn't the cool general anymore. but you're saying he will pick up his military career traits again where he left off? i'd hate to seen him start back at centurion

another question: calvin's scheme says that patricians make tribune if they go out in the field. which is correct in my games. but i never ever saw any of those guys make it any further. equatorians are even worse because they have to earn tribune through battles.

to what extent do the civic and military careers exclude eachother? i find it almost impossible to have generals not spending turns in settlements. they just conquered and need to guard it, they need to trade ancillaries with other characters, they earned a rest and refit in Rome, etc etc.

immediately they start gathering traits along the civic careers. what's the point?
i expect a senator or nobleman to be able to take a legion if the need arises, gain the Tribune trait and fight whatever enemy need to be fought. that works fine and afterwards he can resume his city management duties. no problems.
but none of my patricians or equestrians or proletarians are picking up ANY military career at all if i keep them with a legion running around all over the place.

i built two generals in Rome, they were created as Plebs with a lvl1 in nogatiatores or mercatores, i gave them military ancillaries and put them in charge of legions, thinking they were excellent material for future generals. they are still nice and young. but they aren't receiving the centurion trait...
do they need to be fighting left right and center all the time for that to happen?
or will they be 40 years old before they make it to centurion at all?
in a way it makes sense but it's just so damn slow
and will they pick up those traits if they are 2nd in command? some 40 year old patrician being tribune and commanding the legion, some young bucks gaining experience and promotions and taking over the legion in due time. i suspect that was the whole idea behind the system but i'm not seeing it

(this is in a one-turn recruitment campaign, btw)

[tone]

OK, the first step is for everyone to have a consensus on what the career paths and requirements for getting to certain steps should be. If the thinking behind the traits is wrong then all else gets messed up.

So tell us:
1) what do you think should the interactions between civil and military careers be?
2) what do you think the triggers for certain levels be?
3) should thinks like Former Quaestor be displayed for e.g. a Propraetor?

[Dull_Gladius]

Hmm. I'm sure they'll fix whatever might be wrong. Question: Will adding a military leadership trait via the console manually harm the game in any fashion? Tired of my 54 year old veteran general staying a tribune. I know it's silly but it kinda rips me out of the semi-RP environment this epic mod provides.

[Centaurion]

Take a look at this:




Scipio the man singlehandedly conquered all the rebel cities in Italy and he conquered almost entire Gaul. He has never been in a settlement except to upgrade his armor. All of his victories are "clear victories", and this last one is a "heroic" one (btw, I auto-resolved that last battle :p). Yet he is only a "Tribune"

[dvk901]

Take a look at this:




Scipio the man singlehandedly conquered all the rebel cities in Italy and he conquered almost entire Gaul. He has never been in a settlement except to upgrade his armor. All of his victories are "clear victories", and this last one is a "heroic" one (btw, I auto-resolved that last battle :p). Yet he is only a "Tribune"

I'm seeing a LOT of references to the fact that none of your characters (collectively) get the Legatus trait, but remain 'Tribunes'. There is a reason for this, and you might say it is a compromise based on the limitations of RTW to accurately portray military\governmental changes as time passes. Before the Imperial age, all Patricians were 'Tribunes' by right, just as they were 'Senatorial'. A Tribune was basically a 'General' in the so-called 'pre-Imperial' times. This is why pre-Marian Generals are limited to the title 'Tribune'. The 'Legatus' was essentially a representative of the Senate BEFORE this period, and was not necessarily the 'General' in charge of the army. Generals didn't start being called Legatus until somewhere around the time of Caesar....or in that vague period of history after the Marian Reforms and before the Imperial age. So post-Marian Generals are the only ones who can get this trait.

I think people are seeing the 'Tribune' trait as some kind of 'captain' or lower level officer. This is not the case. A Tribune was a very powerful officer during this time, and it was also a governmental position.

Also, just in reply to all those who posted here:

I realize that there are issues with our system, and I appreciate the input and presentation of problems. However, forgive the fact that we didn't have a lot of time to delve very deeply into the 'relationships' of one trait to another when it came to all these traits.
I can see some pretty glaring deficiencies when it comes to certain General traits as opposed to battles won, and there are other 'relational' problems. But we'll work on them.

[bigmilt16]

Thanks dvk. Actually the posted .txt filed fixed everything up for me for the particians. Although I have not gotten to the Marian reforms, has anybody seen the pleb's get their centurion/lower military ranks?

[mp84]

I think people are seeing the 'Tribune' trait as some kind of 'captain' or lower level officer. This is not the case. A Tribune was a very powerful officer during this time, and it was also a governmental position.

Thanks for the response DVK on this, and the clarification about the historical accuracy of Legatus and Legatus Legionis. I guess, the reason why I need it or prefer it pre-marian, is because Tribunis in a way sort of stinks as a trait, if your saying it's that powerful, then it honestly should be more then just influence, perhaps a +1 command or even a +1 to morale or something. (As at the moment it's only +2 influence) So maybe that could be looked at to buffing that trait slightly to at least make up for the fact that you won't have Legatus or Legatus Legionis pre-marian.

Anyhow, as mentioned before, I'm looking forward to the continue improvements within the trait system itself

[Centaurion]

I'm seeing a LOT of references to the fact that none of your characters (collectively) get the Legatus trait, but remain 'Tribunes'. There is a reason for this, and you might say it is a compromise based on the limitations of RTW to accurately portray military\governmental changes as time passes. Before the Imperial age, all Patricians were 'Tribunes' by right, just as they were 'Senatorial'. A Tribune was basically a 'General' in the so-called 'pre-Imperial' times. This is why pre-Marian Generals are limited to the title 'Tribune'. The 'Legatus' was essentially a representative of the Senate BEFORE this period, and was not necessarily the 'General' in charge of the army. Generals didn't start being called Legatus until somewhere around the time of Caesar....or in that vague period of history after the Marian Reforms and before the Imperial age. So post-Marian Generals are the only ones who can get this trait.

I think people are seeing the 'Tribune' trait as some kind of 'captain' or lower level officer. This is not the case. A Tribune was a very powerful officer during this time, and it was also a governmental position.

I thought that a Tribune was the 2nd in command of a legion (as I recall in the Republican period there were 6 tribunes appointed to a legion). And I think in the trait description that it states that the tribune is the 2nd in command. That's what threw me in a loop, as I thought there was a rank above that as the commander of the legion.

[bigmilt16]

I think the RS2 team got it about right though. I think that 1) not enough prestige comes with the premarian rank of tribune, and 2) most don't understand how prestigious a tribune actually was in the premarian era.


In premarian times, there were 6 tribunes to a legion, two of whom commanded the legion at any time. Thus, tribunes were the equivalent to a modern-day "colonel" or naval "captain" (which is a command rank in the modern armed forces).



In postmarian times, the tribunes transformed into a junior officer position, because each legion had their own legate or "general". Thus, their influence dilluted into that of a modern day junior officer (Lieutenant. through major). Tribunes stopped commanding armies and became apprenticeships for future senators who sought prized military experience.

[Imperator of Rome]

They are aware bud. Just wait and you will have your historical Scipio Africanus

[mp84]

They are aware bud. Just wait and you will have your historical Scipio Africanus

hehe, very true, although I'll be honest I wish there was a quick fix or something to this. As the trait system totally makes an already immersive game, even more immersive in terms of RPing and all, so hopefully a fix can happen soon enough.

Just a thought, but if someone has developed a good fix to this already perhaps that person can post it in the sub mods forums? Again, only a thought

[apple]

We are likely to post all fixes in Patch 1.
WE don't want to release one fix at a time as it's going to be far to complicated for many users once we get up to more than 3 small fixes. (if you don't believe me just look at the tec support forum).

[mp84]

We are likely to post all fixes in Patch 1.
WE don't want to release one fix at a time as it's going to be far to complicated for many users once we get up to more than 3 small fixes. (if you don't believe me just look at the tec support forum).

Totally understand,

Do have a question, whenever the patch 1 does come out, will it be save game compatible with our current campaigns? Or would you need to start a new game to see the changes?